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02-23-2013, 05:32 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
It wasn't too long ago that some were predicting the triumph of FF and the death of APS Then Nikon missed their sales targets in the moment of FF celebrations, and Nikon stock slid 19%. The Nikon introduced a new APS camera, the 7200 and rumour has it a new mirrorless model.

A lot of customers previously worshipped the number of MP in a sensor, now its sensor size. In the end, the only thing that matters, does the tool fit the job and provide the result desired. Sensor size is only one attribute for evaluating a camera.
this is a good point I win contests with my K5 and K10 against full frame canon and Nikon shooters both (there are 3 of us pentaxians). I also don't win against the same folks who also happen to my friends from the clubs I belong to. 90% of photography is the guy/gal behind the view finder. an officer that I trained sent me a phone photo he had taken that was great and said that he wished he could "take pictures" like I did. I replied that he already had. if you can see it you can photograph it but I don't think he understood.


Last edited by nitehntr; 02-24-2013 at 06:53 AM.
02-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohntheThird Quote
So what is the story of FF cameras?
Here is how it all started: Laur's photo blog: The origin of the 3:2 aspect ratio
02-25-2013, 10:50 AM   #48
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I believe aps-c cameras are still the largest sellers for DSLR's. The average P&S user who wants to upgrade his photography to the next level isn't going to be very likely to make that move unless FF cameras start selling in the $700 range with a lens. I think we will continue to see both formats for quite a while. SInce lenses for aps-c are smaller (less glass, less money), there will continue to be lenses dedicated to the format also but probably more FF as time goes on as those lenses will work on both.
02-25-2013, 11:16 AM   #49
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Bonjour,

I think that APSC formats are here to stay ... look at all of the lens that are dedicated this smaller sized image circle. Most of Pentax's lens inventory is dedicated APSC, and many third party are also making dedicated lenses (ie read Sigma and Tamron) ... really who's going to turn their backs against this format which allows for smaller bodied DSLRs etc. ...

If FF is the future, so be it. I'll jump on the boat when the price is right ... and if this future also signals lower cost/priced FF, all the better because this will push APSC prices down as well IMHO ...

I only have one lens that is not usable on FF, that being the 18-55 WR kit lens that can with my K-5 ... my DFA 100 WR is FF compatible along with my DA 35/2.4 ... The only DA lens that I would buy today is the DA 40 Limited since it is FF (not 100%) ... I like my K-5 because I can have the best of both worlds ... APSC lenses and FF lenses as well.

Allez et salut, John le Frog

02-25-2013, 11:48 AM   #50
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FF camera with 24-70 + 70-200 is still a magnitude larger and heavier then APS-C 16-50 + 50-135
I'm actually looking at olympus right now, i hardly shoot at very high ISO and i learned the ropes with the K10D so the K5 is spoiling me.
So having something smaller to take with me would be more beneficial since it would be a matter of having a camera to take a photo since i took the camera with me over that i left it at home since i didn't want to lug it around.
02-27-2013, 01:20 AM - 2 Likes   #51
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"Bigger is Better" or "Good things come in Small Packages"

There is a strange tug-of-war going on here. Miniaturization continues to deliver more in smaller packages. The quality of images from cameras with sensors of any size will improve in time, limited only by diffraction. But there has been that push to "full frame" ( full of what?), based on some historical (and accidental) norm from a different technology of decades ago. And perhaps the continued availability of lenses for that format.

This parallels the trend with cars. Small cars are better and cheaper and more popular than ever, and fulfil the needs of most urban buyers. But at the same time, ever more of those same urban buyers are opting for huge grotesque four-wheel-drive monsters (SUVs for those who speak American) that they'll never have any real need of. In my area, they serve only to ferry kids to and from schools on paved roads.

Similarly, despite all logic, some people will opt for large and unwieldy full frame to emphasise their status. Of course, some serious photographers really need FF, just like some rural people need four-wheel-drives. But many people will make that choice for the wrong reasons. That doesn't mean that we should all jump that way.

There is still a mainstream need for compact camera systems (systems -- lenses as well as cameras). I love my K5 and my tiny Limited lenses and can easily go anywhere with them. I have just dusted off my Olympus OM-1 (full frame) film camera: it is tiny compared even to my K5, and infinitesimal compared to the current generation of FF DSLRs. FF digital is NOT taking us back to the good old days of FF film cameras; modern FF cameras are far less conveniently sized. So I genuinely hope and expect that APS-C will continue in the mainstream for many years. It would be curious indeed if progress delivers us a standard camera format where the equipment we must carry is many times larger than what we used in the 1960s-80s.

Unless of course the camera companies deliberately push the market in that direction for their own reasons ...
02-27-2013, 02:24 AM   #52
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APS-C is here to stay, if for no other reason than it will ALWAYS be cheaper than FF, not to mention more compact.

Even if, in the far-flung future, you get a Pentax FF DSLR, I'm sure that an APS-C crop mode will be available (as it is on Nikon FF DSLRs) to allow the use of APS-C lenses.
02-27-2013, 08:21 AM   #53
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To use my experience with ancient technology: it is the picture not the camera. I used my pentax 110 on vacations and got great pictures because it was easy to tug around (just could not enlarge much). I used my 35mm pentax for most shots but felt I took my best pictures with my pentax 645; and not because it was a larger format but because it slowed me down and everything was done on a tripod.
I just do not need a FF at this point (maybe I will want one in the future). Heck I just purchased a Q because it can be the modern version of that unique pentax 110 that had interchangeable lens. I am having a great time with my brick K-01 and my k-r (will upgrade at some point) is the go to camera. I hope the APS-C has a future....fits my needs/wants.

02-27-2013, 09:41 AM - 1 Like   #54
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The future of APS-c around my house is, I'll be using this camera (K-5) for at least 3 more years and probably a lot longer for telephoto shots. In telephoto, you get those pre-cropped images that save you from filling your hard drive with info you're not going to use and over-size camera bags that aren't manageable in the bush.

I tend to disregard the prognosticators who claim to know the future. Or as MarK Twain once said " Reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated." So too with reports on the death of APS-c, to the point where I'd like to shake some of the prognosticators and say "What's the matter with you, wise up."

SInce APS-c is available on both Nikon and Canon mounts and hasn't seemed to affect APS-c sales a whole lot, I'd say, APS-c is doing just fine. And will continue to be the bulk of DSLR sales well into the future. Believe it or not, most people don't have $1,000 to spend on a system, forget about $2,000. According to some of these guys, the laws of economics are going to miraculously cease to exist at some point. NO matter what you do, an FF sensor is twice the size of an APS-c sensor and will cost more than twice as much to manufacture. And there will always be people who don't need to pay for the larger sensor, based on their style of photography. The death of APS-c is based on people being willing to pay for what they don't need. That quite simply is a pile of hogwash.

Next will come the pile of posts that say " Because I want it you should want it too." Or claiming that I'm saying "Because I don't need it, nobody needs it." Something I've never said but people love to put words in my mouth. Now I'm just saving all the FF converts some time by putting it out there, they are thinking that they are making some unique point that no one ever thought of. For some the fact that they haven't convinced us of the utility of full frame after all this time, just means (to them) that we didn't listen to them. Quite to the contrary, I've read and researched most of what's been written, and it's hogwash. I've checked the pictures, I've done the math, I've looked at the images. I've collected hundreds of opinions. There is absolutely no reason to predict the death of APS-c. And there will be even less once Sony perfects the 24 Mp APS-c sensor. (Their first attempt didn't meet Pentax's standards, and probably wouldn't meet ours either.) Nikon has already done it with the sensor in the 5200. Sony will find a way to catch up.

Once you have an APS-c sensor achieving 3000-3200 LW/PH the advantages of FF will be at best minimal and not at all cost effective. As for the rest... both the D600 and D800 exhibit some false colour and moire, this is not an APS-c issue, the K-5 II cameras perform as well in low light as any but the most expensive cameras. Most of the proposed advantages of FF exist only in peoples imaginations. Where as the smaller size and quality and portability, WR and ruggedness of Pentax APS-c is beyond question.

Last edited by normhead; 02-27-2013 at 12:54 PM.
02-28-2013, 06:35 AM   #55
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I think the only reason to be concerned about your APSC lenses is if you personally plan on buying a Pentax FF when it comes out. And even then your lenses will retain their market value because the bulk of the DSLR market will still be APSC. FF will make a small % of total sales imo. $2000-3000 is a lot of money for a lot of people and you probably need to double that cost to get the lenses that make FF worth it.

The hard part to predict is what will be happening 5-10 years from now with regards to digital cameras and what your needs will be then. Big changes are coming 10 years from now imo. I'm comfortable with what I have though since I can get a K-3 in 2-3 years and likely be set until 2020+. I have 16x20's from my K-5 on my wall and I'm not really convinced I need a better camera. Of course if I had the money to burn I would definitely buy a Pentax FF when it was available. But I don't.
03-01-2013, 04:19 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The future of APS-c around my house is, I'll be using this camera (K-5) for at least 3 more years and probably a lot longer for telephoto shots. In telephoto, you get those pre-cropped images that save you from filling your hard drive with info you're not going to use and over-size camera bags that aren't manageable in the bush.

I tend to disregard the prognosticators who claim to know the future. Or as MarK Twain once said " Reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated." So too with reports on the death of APS-c, to the point where I'd like to shake some of the prognosticators and say "What's the matter with you, wise up."

SInce APS-c is available on both Nikon and Canon mounts and hasn't seemed to affect APS-c sales a whole lot, I'd say, APS-c is doing just fine. And will continue to be the bulk of DSLR sales well into the future. Believe it or not, most people don't have $1,000 to spend on a system, forget about $2,000. According to some of these guys, the laws of economics are going to miraculously cease to exist at some point. NO matter what you do, an FF sensor is twice the size of an APS-c sensor and will cost more than twice as much to manufacture. And there will always be people who don't need to pay for the larger sensor, based on their style of photography. The death of APS-c is based on people being willing to pay for what they don't need. That quite simply is a pile of hogwash.

Next will come the pile of posts that say " Because I want it you should want it too." Or claiming that I'm saying "Because I don't need it, nobody needs it." Something I've never said but people love to put words in my mouth. Now I'm just saving all the FF converts some time by putting it out there, they are thinking that they are making some unique point that no one ever thought of. For some the fact that they haven't convinced us of the utility of full frame after all this time, just means (to them) that we didn't listen to them. Quite to the contrary, I've read and researched most of what's been written, and it's hogwash. I've checked the pictures, I've done the math, I've looked at the images. I've collected hundreds of opinions. There is absolutely no reason to predict the death of APS-c. And there will be even less once Sony perfects the 24 Mp APS-c sensor. (Their first attempt didn't meet Pentax's standards, and probably wouldn't meet ours either.) Nikon has already done it with the sensor in the 5200. Sony will find a way to catch up.

Once you have an APS-c sensor achieving 3000-3200 LW/PH the advantages of FF will be at best minimal and not at all cost effective. As for the rest... both the D600 and D800 exhibit some false colour and moire, this is not an APS-c issue, the K-5 II cameras perform as well in low light as any but the most expensive cameras. Most of the proposed advantages of FF exist only in peoples imaginations. Where as the smaller size and quality and portability, WR and ruggedness of Pentax APS-c is beyond question.
the K5 tested very well against even medium format in image quality. and while reviews have commented about the auto focus being a little slow in low light I have not found this to be the case. I commented in another post that 90% of photography is the guy/gal behind the view finder and a full frame will not change this.
whether or not I get a full frame will be totally price driven. I have some lenses that will work even though they are not HSM I use them on my K5 and K10 both along with my DA* lenses. and based on past performance from pentax I wager when a full frame comes out they will make the DA* lenses usable.
03-01-2013, 05:51 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
and based on past performance from pentax I wager when a full frame comes out they will make the DA* lenses usable.
Sure but you aint getting a FF to use half of the sensor...
It's great of course but not much off a point to get a FF.
03-01-2013, 06:26 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Sure but you aint getting a FF to use half of the sensor...
It's great of course but not much off a point to get a FF.
True - but if you have a lens collection that includes APSC & FF, then at least you can still use the APSC lenses until you are ready to buy FF equivalents.
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