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03-03-2008, 07:39 PM   #16
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They have been questioned already, and more than once.

There's something wrong about these measurements, the method. The K20D clearly has lower noise at any ISO compared to the K10, specially at 800 and up. At 1600 there is just NO comparison, the K10D is chromanoisefest! I can't believe that's rated as "moderate", yet the K20D's very usable 6400 is considered "unacceptable".

03-03-2008, 07:44 PM   #17
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Numbers don't always equate to good images. There are a lot of subtle differences from the K10D to the K20D. Image quality is great on both cameras but the combination of IQ & low noise on K20D is the best I have seen in any APS-C sized DSLR.
03-03-2008, 07:52 PM   #18
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Error in 40d comparison corrected.

The point of the OP was not to disparage what is certainly outstanding performance of the k20d. The point was that I no longer feel that if I sit out this upgrade, I will be missing out on a lot of capability.

The point was how great the k10d is...
03-03-2008, 10:19 PM   #19
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I took solar1's suggestion and posted a question about this over at PopPhoto's online forums.

link to my thread

I'll let you know if anybody responds with anything that makes sense. Right now, I'm inclined to suspect that the review's test numbers were very faulty, either that, or they've gotten a new ruler.

Will

03-03-2008, 10:21 PM   #20
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I found Pop Photo's article on how to read their test results.

http://www.popphoto.com/...how-to-read-a-camera-test.html

Here's the pertinent paragraph:
3) Noise. We determine a camera's noise level at various ISO settings by shooting an FBI SIQT v.1.0 target and analyzing a 100x100-pixel square in the center of the large middletone gray patch. Using Adobe Photoshop's histogram function, we average the standard deviations of the luminosity, R, G, and B channels, and base our rating on the scale at right.
Sounds scientific to me, but I say that mainly because I don't understand it. I can't get away from the fact that everybody who has a K20D and has used the K10D says that the difference at higher ISOs is quite evident, and in the K20D's favor. And this is borne out by the photos I've seen both in this forum and over in the dpreview.com forums.

Will
03-04-2008, 02:54 AM   #21
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Greath... so if you want to make pictures of gray patches then the canon is better(or better said cleaner).
03-04-2008, 06:19 AM   #22
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I have done a very similar comparison as yours, but with K20D against its main competition for the PopPhoto results (instead of against K10D):

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: First K20D Production Camera Formal Test

Hope you'll find my summary useful.

QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Now don't get me wrong; I love my k10d, but understandably I have been feeling a bit envious of the new k20d coming out. I read the review in PopPhoto on the k20d which was very good (they give a clear nod to the 20D over the 40D for example). I decided to go back and compare some numbers with the k10d review. Particularly the low-light numbers which are of great interest to me (2/3 of my glass is "fast"). I found them interesting:

k10d, k20d

Image Quality: Excellent, Excellent
Color Accuracy: 7.66 (Excellent), 7.98 (Excellent)
Noise
ISO 100 1.15 (very low), 1.22 (very low)
ISO 200 1.15 (very low), 1.49 (very low)
ISO 400 1.40 (very low), 1.76 (low)
ISO 800 1.70 (low), 1.64 (low)
ISO 1600 1.95 (low), 2.60 (moderate)

Highlt/shdw detail: very high, high
AF speed: Identical (which is understandable. No need to quote the numbers here)

So I'm feeling a lot better about my k10d. It doesn't have the resolution of the 14mp k20d, but I don't think I have ever used the 10.1 mp of the k10d to it's full potential. (I don't do alot of poster-sized prints) I was really surprised that the k10d was better at all iso levels except 800. k10d is actually better than 40D at iso1600. If I had anything older than my k10d, I would go for the k20d in a heartbeat, but I now feel comfortable waiting for the next generation (or later) Pentax.
03-04-2008, 08:08 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I have done a very similar comparison as yours, but with K20D against its main competition for the PopPhoto results (instead of against K10D):

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: First K20D Production Camera Formal Test

Hope you'll find my summary useful.
What did you compare? With your own cameras? This is just more coy and paste info that we already read.

Have you looked at my ISO 3200 and above images on the forum? Have you looked at the ISO tests on DPR? Pop Photo is completely wrong in every regard about the ISO performance. They have an agenda just like you do in that Pentax can't be better than anyone else.

ISO 6400 out of camera:


03-04-2008, 11:18 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
What did you compare? With your own cameras? This is just more coy and paste info that we already read.[/IMG]
Hey, he's doing it the right way - quoting numbers and doing endless masturbatory theoretical analysis and comparison. Everyone knows that is what photography is all about. Stop wasting our time with your actual *pictures*. We want more numbers and conjecture!!!
03-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Have you looked at my ISO 3200 and above images on the forum? Have you looked at the ISO tests on DPR? Pop Photo is completely wrong in every regard about the ISO performance. They have an agenda just like you do in that Pentax can't be better than anyone else.
Did you shoot those great high ISO examples with noise reduction ON, or OFF?

I got a response to my question about the noise testing, over in the PopPhoto forums. The response came from a "super contributor" who sounds like he knows how the reviews are done. My impression is that PopPhoto does its testing using camera defaults. This makes some sense, or at least, if I try to be charitable, I can see why they might have decided to do things this way. Many users no doubt buy the camera, take it out of the box, turn it on, and start shooting. So PopPhoto gives them a fair idea of what they'll see. Perhaps for point and shoot cameras, this really does make sense. But for digital SLRs, I rather expect them to try to conduct the tests in a way that is less likely to produce misleading results.

Will
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