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03-08-2008, 06:37 AM   #16
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Chris, relax man!! Of course this "review" (choking on my coffee) is garbage. This is just like the SDM lens test he posted a while back. He never bought the camera. He read some little comments here and there and cobbled together a flimsy commentary on a few things. If this the the worst he can find on the various forums, then that confirms my belief that they have a great camera on their hands.

Really who gives a FLYING F**K what he writes. I'll take yours and other hands on users opinions as real reviews long before any of this crap. At least you actually shoot pictures....



QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Blah Blah Blah Blah Garbage.

So I guess you didn't know that the Shake Reduction works while in Live View which is what causes that delay right?

Lag time is actually shorter, tested that against my water drops.

AF is more responsive than a Canon 40D and thats coming from the Canon tech guru that came to our camera store last week and took noted from the K20D to pass back to Canon cause he liked it so much.

You lied about the AF being exactly the same, because everyone who has handled the camera claims the AF seems faster and more responsive especially with an SDM lens attached.

Build quality... so being made out of a substance thats technically stronger than magnesium is cheap? Hmmmm, ok I want what you're on RH.

Ok, the Live View AF is the same as Canons 40D... you have a problem with that? Hmmm... oh not even the 1Ds MKIII af's in live view...

Why not buy a Canon or Nikon? You said it yourself that people don't have X dollars to spend. Whats funny is I've had two people sell off there entire Canon system to get the K20D and are actually happier with the K20D then their Canon systems which one was a 1Ds MKII and all L glass.

RH you make some bold statements that hold no water and you loose more credibility as a human being everyday.


03-08-2008, 06:50 AM   #17
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Ben, I have to admit a little lazy care for my camera (K10D) one day but it attests to the strength of this body. I had the camera on the back seat of my van with the zipper open on the bag. A few months ago, I was on a secondary highway when another car backed out of a driveway on a corner. I hit the brakes hard only to see the camera/grip and FA50mm macro fly past my shoulder, hit the dash and drop to the floor. After pulling over I was expecting to find a cracked screen, broken lens mount or cracked housing. Not a scratch!! The camera has shot at least 2500 trouble free images since.

A tank it is.

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I will add to what Chris is saying...

As I sit here playing with my K20D's, I am still amazed by the build quality of this "TANK". As one who studied Architecture and within that subject Industrial Design, I find that the ergonomics to be exceptional. The way the battery grip "melds" in to the body rather than just being stuck on like an after thought has been very well designed. I haven't noticed a shutter lag issue at all. The design quality of the shutter release button is very well executed. In fact your analysis of the shutter release on the battery grip seemed strange as it hasn't changed since being introduced with the K10D. I find the AF very responsive and accurate. What you did not highlight was the fact that you can manually adjust the AF for up to 20 lenses if there are problems with specific lenses. I have handled both the Canon and Nikon you mentioned and find your comparison regarding build quality to be totally absurd. I would have come to a totally opposite conclusion. The reason I would do so is based on the fact that the Pentax is water proof and as a result the tolerances of the Pentax are extremely tight which gives it a very solid feel.

None the less thanks for your objective analysis.

Ben
03-08-2008, 08:03 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Tried out two different units of K20D (with a DA 70 Limited and the DA 16-45) yesterday and have the following first impressions:-

1. The whole shutter release action is smoother and quieter (than any other previous K cameras). That means the mirror up action is gentler, shutter sound is quieter and the mirror down damping is better;

I don't know about K10D but of course the shutter is much quiter than K100D's;

2. However, the shutter release is not really instantaneous. I can observe a noticeable shutter lag plus an even longer blackout time of the finder (maybe even worse than what K10D does have which is already considered as not good);

I don't really know what you mean in my usage nothing like this happend

3. Moreover, the shutter release button is badly loose, which means the reaction force is simply too little for the half-pressing. In fact, I found it just feels worse than my K100D. The shutter release button of the vertical grip suffers from the same problem as the main body button. The bad feel decreases the overall feeling about better build quality;

I had the K100D and although I also think that the shutter button moves smoother I had never pressed to much or to little in some 150 shots with K20D


4. Metering and exposure accuracy *seems* to be better. No significant underexposure was seen for quite a number of test shots which I made, under sunlight outdoor and in different artificial lighting sources or even mixed source. I feel this to be a good thing since it *seems* that Pentax have tried to make their DSLR to expose right and at least brighter in the K20D production units. Nonetheless, for the various samples from beta models, I could still see obvious underepozure problems as what all Pentax DSLRs which I have used would do.

So, beta rullz and production models sucks ...

Do note that with my yet limited use on the K20D, I think it maybe too early to draw conclusion on an improved metering system yet. But so far I feel that this "new" metering system is just better!

sure thing

5. Auto WB seems to has been improved, with less significant colour cast which would present under more difficult lighting conditions as for previous Pentax DSLRs. The AWB is not totally ideal, though - it just looks better but not perfect.

Well the AB is miles better than K100D's but not perfect! This is confirmed by Pentax (and all the other camera manufactures) by implementing like 10 more types of WB plus a custom WB. At least me think so!

6. I shot stationary people and object under the sunlight and indoor with AF-S mode, using the central AF point mostly. What I would temporarily conclude that the AF system is the same as and identical to the K10D and K100D's (well, if Lithium batteries is used in the K100). The most annoying thing is the final focus reconfirmation which checked for if the first time AF movement stopped position had any errors and needed to re-adjust once more (aka hunting, although it is not in a serious way, just because the testing environment is just bright or not too dim indoor). The responsiveness of the AF is rather poor, too, which means that after you have half-pressed the shutter release button, there is a noticeable delay before the AF motor moves - the AF system just needed to think longer than what I would tolerate. Well, in short, I would still think that the AF system performance, speed, responsiveness etc. is still pathetic;

I have no previous experience with other cameras ( C & N that is) so I can only compare the AF system to K100D's. It is vastly improved IMO especially in speed. I used the same lens (FA50 f1,4) and even that the AF stil "hunts" in low light is much much better than K100's

7. Furthermore, the classic Pentax AF red illumination indicator incorrect position problem does still exist for these two units I tested!(?) The first K20D was having the central AF red point shift upwards whereas the second one had it shifted upwards and to the right side. The problem is indeed rather annoying (at least to me and quite some other users as reported) although it have nothing to do for the actual AF sensor alignment, I just wonder why Pentax still and still have NOT debugged its design and adopt a better indication method which should not be having this persistent problem, which happened on day one with my *ist D bodies, which is just a very disappointed thing.

Moreover, do note that the misaligned AF red dot may mislead the user to level the image when looking through the *optical* viewfinder, which is a practical problem which much less people would notice.

To be honnest I never notice that but I will check out. It will be usefull if you could put some numbers next to your observations regarding this.


8. I am not impressed with the overall build quality of the K20D. It feels exactly the same of all the *ist D and previous K cameras - the outer shell is just too plasticky somehow afterall.

Again I only had K100D and to put it in the best way I can this is not true! The build quality of K20D far surpasses that of K100D in any conceivable way.

9. As other reviewers have reported, I also found that the Live View AF is problematic and difficult to use. In the Live View mode, what we need is to press the AF button at the body back to do the AF. But then there is no indication of any kind for what AF has been done completely and correctly, or NOT! (unlike other LiveView DSLRs like the Olympus E-410 and 510 which have such an indication with red and green spot to tell the status).

Well here I concur! The Live view is not my favorite new feature of K20D's and to be honest I didnít spend too much time studying it. I tried some MF with it and it work fine. Nothing more and I have nothing more to add to this subject.

I had eventually got some out-of-focus pictures with such an AF "function" under the Live View mode with the K20D. I think I just "didn't know how to use the camera" as particular Pentax fanboys always said when they were put into their "defense mode"!

10. The LCD video frame rate under the Live View mode is not very high. I can see the displayed "video" is not smooth when I panned the K20D just in slow motion. It is just very usable if we are to take still photos, nonetheless.

See above.

All in all, the quick conclusion of mine is that whilst I believe that the K20D should be the best DSLR body ever made by Pentax in the Pentax land. It just fell short of many things in the competition and by no means it is really a wise choice to choose by considering its relatively high price tag which it is just not worth by judging in any ways unless we are tied firmly to the Pentax system. Frankly, if I am starting from scratch, why not buy a D300 or a 40D at about the same price, which has better and faster AF, faster shooting frame rate, better build quality, less shutter lag, less "classic" Pentax specified and unique problems, a stronger and more comprehensive system, better customer support and so on.

As pointed before the price differential is large between K20D and D300 and small but still exists compared to 40D. I can only speak for myself and say that I simply wasn't ready to spend the total amount of money needed for a Nikon or Canon system (body+ 3-5 lenses+ accessories).

Finally, my bet is that the K20D will not be as "popular" as the K10D would as most of the potential new buyers who were interested in Pentax and such a "K10D" alike camera had already bought into a K10D already but I guess not many K10D users would upgrade to the K20D. The old Pentax *ist D series users might be interested but then the K20D by no means is an attractive offer for new comers, especially when those do not have any old Pentax lenses.

I want to say just one thing in the conclusion. Reading your post you say that the K20D is not better build than previous models, has the same AF (very poor of course), not worthy of upgrade even from K100Ds, with new features which are useless (LV) and old features that are downgraded (shutter button e.g.) but you finish your test with "All in all, the quick conclusion of mine is that whilst I believe that the K20D should be the best DSLR body ever made by Pentax in the Pentax land.." I don't find this very logical forgive me to say so!

Original article with all the linked URLs included:-
RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: K20D First Hands-on Impressions
---------------------------
03-08-2008, 08:14 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Go away, RH.
Well my fellow countryman there is no need to be rude with people. If you have experiences with K20D (at least as RH has) feel free to post your opinion. I think it's fair to attack the ideas and not the man.

03-08-2008, 09:32 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Well my fellow countryman there is no need to be rude with people. If you have experiences with K20D (at least as RH has) feel free to post your opinion. I think it's fair to attack the ideas and not the man.
you obviously haunt been here long enough. stick around, and you'll find why we all think his posts are rubbish. I have both k10 and 20d, and have played w/ the 40d and d300. while i cannot really base my finding on what, 10 minutes of playing around w/ it at a store, I do see some positives going for the 20d. (as well as big improvements from the 10d) some negatives as well, but it's all relative.

anyway, RH is that annoying person that just doesnt leave. no one likes him..all he's done is make these so called tests. I have not seen him post a photo he's taken to back up such findings.

and yeah..I practically disagree at everything he said about the 20d from his "hands on impression" I guess i should do the same thing on the sony a700, canon 40d, and Nikon d300 because i've spent about 10 minutes w/ each body...
03-08-2008, 09:36 AM   #21
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I am fairly new on this site. I have to admit...I read what this guy has to say. I do trust the words of others on this site when needing to learn a little, but RH brings me entertainment. It appears as though he has the major players on the forum right where he wants them. They all respond, and they all defend their gear and their choices to stay loyal to the underdog (pentax). He is the voice of a man who resents pentax for not being one of the other 2. Pentax will always be Pentax. A great little secret. If Pentax put out a camera that defeated the greatest DSLR's on the planet, RH would be lost.
03-08-2008, 09:42 AM   #22
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I don't know about K10D but of course the shutter is much quiter than K100D's;
Yes. My experience is the loudiness of K100>K10>K20.

QuoteQuote:
2. However, the shutter release is not really instantaneous. I can observe a noticeable shutter lag plus an even longer blackout time of the finder (maybe even worse than what K10D does have which is already considered as not good);

I don't really know what you mean in my usage nothing like this happend
Well, I think the shutter lag is fine for general purposes. But for critical moments or moving objects etc. when we require super fast camera response, the K20D simply is not as fast as its competitor, e.g., the D300 and 40D. In fact, the lag is noticeable longer than my 5D too (but then I can notice that the D300 is yet slightly faster than my 5D too)

I started my photography hobby with a rangefinder in 70s. So, my sensitivity to such camera overall system time lag is very high :-)

QuoteQuote:
3. Moreover, the shutter release button is badly loose, which means the reaction force is simply too little for the half-pressing. In fact, I found it just feels worse than my K100D. The shutter release button of the vertical grip suffers from the same problem as the main body button. The bad feel decreases the overall feeling about better build quality;

I had the K100D and although I also think that the shutter button moves smoother I had never pressed to much or to little in some 150 shots with K20D
Again, if we need to compare the D300, 40D or even the 5D. If Pentax cameras are compared, I think the MZ-S is far better here.

QuoteQuote:
4. Metering and exposure accuracy *seems* to be better. No significant underexposure was seen for quite a number of test shots which I made, under sunlight outdoor and in different artificial lighting sources or even mixed source. I feel this to be a good thing since it *seems* that Pentax have tried to make their DSLR to expose right and at least brighter in the K20D production units. Nonetheless, for the various samples from beta models, I could still see obvious underepozure problems as what all Pentax DSLRs which I have used would do.

So, beta rullz and production models sucks ...

Do note that with my yet limited use on the K20D, I think it maybe too early to draw conclusion on an improved metering system yet. But so far I feel that this "new" metering system is just better!

sure thing
So, could you confirm an improved metering/exposure accuracy from you experiences, say, against your K100D?

QuoteQuote:
I have no previous experience with other cameras ( C & N that is) so I can only compare the AF system to K100D's. It is vastly improved IMO especially in speed. I used the same lens (FA50 f1,4) and even that the AF stil "hunts" in low light is much much better than K100's
I'm not satisfied with the AF speed and responsiveness of both K20D I tried. I think if you use a Lithium battery for your K100D, the difference is very small here. In contrast, the hunting behaviour is very close.

QuoteQuote:
Moreover, do note that the misaligned AF red dot may mislead the user to level the image when looking through the *optical* viewfinder, which is a practical problem which much less people would notice.

To be honnest I never notice that but I will check out. It will be usefull if you could put some numbers next to your observations regarding this.
It's not difficult to find those similar user reports on asking why this is so or just complaints on it.

QuoteQuote:
8. I am not impressed with the overall build quality of the K20D. It feels exactly the same of all the *ist D and previous K cameras - the outer shell is just too plasticky somehow afterall.

Again I only had K100D and to put it in the best way I can this is not true! The build quality of K20D far surpasses that of K100D in any conceivable way.
The plastic finishing and outer shell is exactly the same, for its material used. So, to me, there is no better build quality here. The inside metal chassis are the same too, for what it is told from official Pentax catalogues.

QuoteQuote:
As pointed before the price differential is large between K20D and D300 and small but still exists compared to 40D. I can only speak for myself and say that I simply wasn't ready to spend the total amount of money needed for a Nikon or Canon system (body+ 3-5 lenses+ accessories).
The price difference is not huge as many people would believe. I think it is just neglectible for decision making.

QuoteQuote:
I want to say just one thing in the conclusion. Reading your post you say that the K20D is not better build than previous models, has the same AF (very poor of course), not worthy of upgrade even from K100Ds, with new features which are useless (LV) and old features that are downgraded (shutter button e.g.) but you finish your test with "All in all, the quick conclusion of mine is that whilst I believe that the K20D should be the best DSLR body ever made by Pentax in the Pentax land.." I don't find this very logical forgive me to say so!
It is the best as it is latest and have more debugs. However, if we are to compare against the big two or even Sony. They have a long road to run but I do hope that they should run (much) faster!
03-08-2008, 10:06 AM   #23
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Rice,
I'm really not going to comment on your findings. I haven't had enough time with the K20D to say anything, and there's a fair chance that I never will.

However I wanted to say that if you get a chance you should try another body.

I tried the K20D yesterday, and really liked it. However the shutter release button required less pressure than any camera I've ever tried.

I could see it being considered as
QuoteQuote:
the shutter release button is badly loose
And I'm not sure if it was just the camera I tried, or if they're just making the buttons like that now.

Personally I felt that I could live with a shutter button like that, but it might take others longer to accept it if it was designed that way

As for White Balance. That can and probably will be improved with firmware updates in the future.
I set it manually for my walk around.
I haven't seen any camera where it's perfect, and I'll be suprised if it ever is.

03-08-2008, 10:22 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Well, I think the shutter lag is fine for general purposes. But for critical moments or moving objects etc. when we require super fast camera response, the K20D simply is not as fast as its competitor, e.g., the D300 and 40D. In fact, the lag is noticeable longer than my 5D too (but then I can notice that the D300 is yet slightly faster than my 5D too)

I started my photography hobby with a rangefinder in 70s. So, my sensitivity to such camera overall system time lag is very high :-)

The price difference is not huge as many people would believe. I think it is just neglectible for decision making.
You brush off $400-500 dollars as "negligible" yet nitpick 0.01s differences in shutter lag.

I can tell you which of those two factors people are going to notice.
03-08-2008, 04:15 PM   #25
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RH, what I can't figure out is why you care. You hate Pentax, we get that. I can't stand Windows, but I don't post blogs about how lacking I think it is. I strongly dislike Fords, but I don't post negative threads in Ford forums. I think you are less interesting than deer poop on a rainy day, so I don't visit your blog. So why do you continue to post here? We obviously don't like you and think your opinions are more putrid than George W's foreign policy. Do you think that your posts help anyone? Are you a crazy person that get his jollies by writing negative propaganda until he wets his pants?

Most of us here take pictures. Some of us do it for a living. We like our gear. We like to hear about others' experience. We don't like people leaving flaming bags of dung on our doorstep. You are that infantile person with the flaming dung. I have half a mind to start a new Pentax forum that people can go to, one that I can ban you from. You opinions are invalid, ill-conceived and smell like sewer waste.

To those who don't appreciate the personal attack on RH - too bad. I am that fed up with his rubbish.
03-08-2008, 05:05 PM   #26
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Did someone say deer poop?

03-08-2008, 05:33 PM   #27
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Like I said in the SLR Lens section......

That's it.......

You are not suppose to post pictures showing images taken with a "Camera" or a "Lens" for that matter. We are here to talk about "GEAR"

Every time we get in to a cozy discussion about "PIXELS", "AF", "RAW" etc etc...Someone has to F up the works and "SHOW A 'PITCHER'"

Don't you know, and I must thank "RH"for this wise advice,

Don't take "PITCHERS" with your camera!!!! That is BORING!!!

Here is the problem. By showing a "PITCHER" you create insecurity in those who only like reading "SPECS"

It forces a major Paradigm shift that can often cause major depression and possible PSYCHOSIS in those who have come from a less "Centered" and "STABLE...ized" environment.

Your lack of "EMPATHY" here shows your lack of "Sensitivity!"

So please "NO MORE PITCHERS"

You are compelling people to actually use their camera...That is just too much of a commitment for most of us.

Thanks for your understanding.

Dr. Jack M.E. Auff Ph.D.
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Last edited by benjikan; 03-08-2008 at 06:12 PM.
03-08-2008, 06:00 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by davemdsn Quote
I strongly dislike Fords,
Aw mate! and here was I thinking your an OK sort of a bloke too. ..... doesn't like Fords??! I'm shattered.

errr.....anyone for popcorn ?? soda pop? got a comfy chair? we could be here for awhile.
03-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote

I started my photography hobby with a rangefinder in 70s. So, my sensitivity to such camera overall system time lag is very high :-)
Just out of curiosity, how did you manage to go about annoying people with your complaints before the advent of the internet?

And did just when do you plan to take your first picture you actually show anyone?

30 years is quite some time.
03-08-2008, 06:44 PM   #30
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Can you please list some more postive aspects of the k20d?
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