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03-08-2008, 06:50 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Like I said in the SLR Lens section......

That's it.......

Your lack of "EMPATHY" here shows your lack of "Sensitivity!"

Thanks for your understanding.

Dr. Jack M.E. Auff Ph.D.
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Dear Dr Jack,
Now I'm totally confused, does this mean that the OP performs better at High ISO or Low ISO ?
Please help me understand.

03-08-2008, 07:04 PM   #32
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QuoteQuote:
To those who don't appreciate the personal attack on RH - too bad. I am that fed up with his rubbish.
I am wondering - again - why people complain about RH yet respond to his posts. Has no one learned anything?
03-08-2008, 07:28 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
I am wondering - again - why people complain about RH yet respond to his posts. Has no one learned anything?
By the time I got to this thread it was already on page two. I only posted because I really am curious why he posts at all. I know why I think he posts, I just thought I would see if he wanted to defend himself with a different reason or just keep on being troll snot.
03-08-2008, 08:08 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote

Ok, the Live View AF is the same as Canons 40D...

Canon thought to add live-histogram,and exposure simulation to last year's Canon 40D, and Contrast Detect AF in the cheap 450D. Nikons D300 had that last year. Pentax has none of that, and won't for at least a year if ever.

No point in ever improving this feature if all the people with NDA's don't have a single use for it, and just say its "good enough" or "do you have a problem with it? hmmm???".

Same with any other performance feature. Why should Pentax improve them, since its always good enough for all the beta testers they choose?

03-08-2008, 08:13 PM   #35
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Michael,

The E-500 according to the tables in your blog has 0.2s more delay than the K10 and I've never read a single rant about it. When it comes to prefocused shutter lag, the differences are negligible, 0.03 seconds is something you can only notice in on-line gaming

I bet if they declared the shutter release "touch sensitive" for AF no one would complain.. "wow, new feature".

Calling AF speed "pathetic" makes you pathetic... If you have really been a photographer for 30 years you should notice that there's no old camera with a faster AF than today's models. The difference between any Pentax and a top Canon or Nikon is no more than 0.2s in good light - yes, it is easily noticeable, but only if you're not USING the camera, in real life any system is nearly instant. You see, where Pentax is really behind the competition is in LOW LIGHT performance, not speed in general. The AF gets slower and slower as lights dim, but it remains accurate till the end. Saying that it is pathetic shows you don't know what you're talking about.

My K100D has the center AF spot right in the middle of the screen. On the Gx-10 it is a little to the left - I have the impression it moves closer to the center depending on my eye position (?). But both work exactly the same, and I can't imagine a situation where you would be trying to focus on something smaller than 3x the dot.

As far as I know, in Live View you should hold the AF button until it locks focus (beeeeep) and flips the mirror back up, there's no need for indication.

You see, I have never touched a K20D and yet I can dismiss your "review" as bs. The way you write is very transparent, one can see that you're desperate to find quirks. You have a love & hate relationship with Pentax. Let it go for christ's sake, go to the arms of Canon!
03-08-2008, 08:19 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Canon thought to add live-histogram,and exposure simulation to last year's Canon 40D, and Contrast Detect AF in the cheap 450D. Nikons D300 had that last year. Pentax has none of that, and won't for at least a year if ever.

No point in ever improving this feature if all the people with NDA's don't have a single use for it, and just say its "good enough" or "do you have a problem with it? hmmm???".

Same with any other performance feature. Why should Pentax improve them, since its always good enough for all the beta testers they choose?
Oh yeah, there comes the other one. Don't you have anything better to do?

No one says there is no need for improvements. Pentax offers cheaper equipment with excellent capabilities. The cameras never come with the latest technology trends, they are just solid photographic equipment. What's the point in whining about Contrast AF on the f* 450D? Try to compare image quality, while you complain people are making choices in real life.
03-08-2008, 08:19 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Canon thought to add live-histogram,and exposure simulation to last year's Canon 40D, and Contrast Detect AF in the cheap 450D. Nikons D300 had that last year. Pentax has none of that, and won't for at least a year if ever.

No point in ever improving this feature if all the people with NDA's don't have a single use for it, and just say its "good enough" or "do you have a problem with it? hmmm???".

Same with any other performance feature. Why should Pentax improve them, since its always good enough for all the beta testers they choose?
You don't even know what you're talking about.
03-08-2008, 08:49 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Canon thought to add live-histogram,and exposure simulation to last year's Canon 40D, and Contrast Detect AF in the cheap 450D. Nikons D300 had that last year. Pentax has none of that, and won't for at least a year if ever.

No point in ever improving this feature if all the people with NDA's don't have a single use for it, and just say its "good enough" or "do you have a problem with it? hmmm???".

Same with any other performance feature. Why should Pentax improve them, since its always good enough for all the beta testers they choose?
The only reason Canon offer anything is because their competition shame them into it. Cmon, how many re-warmed camera bodies with purposely crippled functionality did they make before they got forced into doing it by everyone else innovating?

Spot metering, how long did THAT take to get into even Canons semi-pro cameras like the 20D? Firmware limited crap that could be fixed with a hacked firmware in their base models? The half-assed attempt at a upgrade that was the 30D?

Don't use Canon as an example of an innovative, pioneering and leading edge company. Canon have great cameras but are pretty much run by their marketing department lately.

03-09-2008, 12:36 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
The only reason Canon offer anything is because their competition shame them into it.

Don't use Canon as an example of an innovative, pioneering and leading edge company. Canon have great cameras but are pretty much run by their marketing department lately.
There are definitely a few features the K20D has that are innovative compared to Canon. The point was that if Pentax had decided they were going to include live view, the designers working on it didn't need to invent it from scratch. Some of these features already exist on current Pentax P&S cameras. Proven features to make Live-View a most useful tool already out in other DSLR's could have been carefully noticed by Pentax to be included.

I compare the Pentax to the 450D because it is a camera introduced this year, not last year, and this year's live-view on even that $700 camera's 3" screen includes Live Histogram, Contrast Detect AF, and Exposure Simulation.

Also, these are not features that would kill profitability. Its already similar cost to the 40D, and is a newer camera. At a similar cost to the 40D, Pentax already saved cost on not redesigning low-light & predictive AF, fps speed, and even weathersealing since this cost came out of the K10D.

Dismiss me as if I were RyceHye if you will, but working with beta testers that are not really interested in the features they are testing, such as live-view, will never come back to Pentax and say what the feature really needs based on experience. If Pentax doesn't give their beta testers's opinions very solid weight, and keep choosing people that lovingly explain away anything Pentax does, complacency and surprise at reactions will result.
03-09-2008, 01:47 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
There are definitely a few features the K20D has that are innovative compared to Canon. The point was that if Pentax had decided they were going to include live view, the designers working on it didn't need to invent it from scratch. Some of these features already exist on current Pentax P&S cameras. Proven features to make Live-View a most useful tool already out in other DSLR's could have been carefully noticed by Pentax to be included.

I compare the Pentax to the 450D because it is a camera introduced this year, not last year, and this year's live-view on even that $700 camera's 3" screen includes Live Histogram, Contrast Detect AF, and Exposure Simulation.

Also, these are not features that would kill profitability. Its already similar cost to the 40D, and is a newer camera. At a similar cost to the 40D, Pentax already saved cost on not redesigning low-light & predictive AF, fps speed, and even weathersealing since this cost came out of the K10D.

Dismiss me as if I were RyceHye if you will, but working with beta testers that are not really interested in the features they are testing, such as live-view, will never come back to Pentax and say what the feature really needs based on experience. If Pentax doesn't give their beta testers's opinions very solid weight, and keep choosing people that lovingly explain away anything Pentax does, complacency and surprise at reactions will result.
I assume Pentax included live view because its the current "thing", a marketing tick in the box to compare against everyone else. Sad, but a fact of life in the world today.

Yet in the end, how many people really care? Live view is not an important part of a DSLR, and to be honest, I think live view is a load of marketing crap until there is a multi-directional swivel LCD like Olympus, and the instant phase detection AF like Sony, and high res screen like Sony/Nikon. Until all those conditions are met (without associated downsides like crappy viewfinders, bad battery life etc), which I don't think any DSLR from any brand has in one body, how can Pentax as a small player in the game achieve it?

A class leading megapixel sensor with decent noise levels is probably a fair bit more important to beta testers than P&S crap like live view. Shit, if Pentax asked you if you wanted them to spend money and time on live view or low noise, what would you pick?
03-09-2008, 02:02 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
3. Moreover, the shutter release button is badly loose, which means the reaction force is simply too little for the half-pressing. In fact, I found it just feels worse than my K100D. The shutter release button of the vertical grip suffers from the same problem as the main body button. The bad feel decreases the overall feeling about better build quality;
I think it's called soft touch back in the film days. Don't remember which Canon model but not everyone liked it either. My old Z-1p had similar characteristic too and switching between the MZ bodies and the Z-1p could result in some accidental shots. But once I got used to it, I like the soft touch better for quick snaps.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
6. I shot stationary people and object under the sunlight and indoor with AF-S mode, using the central AF point mostly. What I would temporarily conclude that the AF system is the same as and identical to the K10D and K100D's (well, if Lithium batteries is used in the K100). The most annoying thing is the final focus reconfirmation which checked for if the first time AF movement stopped position had any errors and needed to re-adjust once more (aka hunting, although it is not in a serious way, just because the testing environment is just bright or not too dim indoor). The responsiveness of the AF is rather poor, too, which means that after you have half-pressed the shutter release button, there is a noticeable delay before the AF motor moves - the AF system just needed to think longer than what I would tolerate. Well, in short, I would still think that the AF system performance, speed, responsiveness etc. is still pathetic;
I recently tried the 40D twice at different time just to see how much better the AF tracking was. My sister was helping me for the tests and walking toward me in BestBuy (around 5-6EV I think). With the kit zooms at their long ends, 40D never missed a moment, D80 was about as good but the AF was less smooth at close range, surprisingly the E410 while not as perfect, still managed to tracking much better than my DS with any lenses that I have. My DS with DA16-45/4 was able to take 4 shots in AF-C but it either AF on the background (thanks to the wide AF sensors) or completely OOF (it just kept thinking...). When I checked the raw speed the 40D was turning the lens from one end to another, it was no faster than my DS. So it is not the raw speed that made the AF difference. Based on my experience with the DS (yeah I know K10D/K20D should be faster), I have noticed that as the EV drops, the camera tends to "think" and hestitate a moment before it starts to turn the lens. As it zips in, it would hesitate twice before it locks focus. On rare occasions, it would hesitate once only before lock. I think these are the reasons the Pentax AF suffers for moving targets as it simply hesitates too much. But for static subjects, you rarely notice the difference. Nonetheless, I am convinced Pentax would not seriously address this shortcoming in the near future (should have done it along with the SDM but they didn't), I have just bought myself a set of 40D just for low EV AF & AF tracking. Will be interesting to see how much it helps in practice.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
7. Furthermore, the classic Pentax AF red illumination indicator incorrect position problem does still exist for these two units I tested!(?) The first K20D was having the central AF red point shift upwards whereas the second one had it shifted upwards and to the right side. The problem is indeed rather annoying (at least to me and quite some other users as reported) although it have nothing to do for the actual AF sensor alignment, I just wonder why Pentax still and still have NOT debugged its design and adopt a better indication method which should not be having this persistent problem, which happened on day one with my *ist D bodies, which is just a very disappointed thing.
The projector is located on the "forehead" of the prism, together with the focus screen you see the red indicator. If either one was not aligned precisely, the red dots will not appear perfectly centred. If it was not too far off, it might (or might not) be addressed by reseating the screen.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Moreover, do note that the misaligned AF red dot may mislead the user to level the image when looking through the *optical* viewfinder, which is a practical problem which much less people would notice.
I think the only concern is that the AF sensor module might not be as precisely as aligned as it should. This might led to miss-AF or thought to be BF/FF. The same applies to spot meter as well, except realign the metering cell is a lot easier.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
8. I am not impressed with the overall build quality of the K20D. It feels exactly the same of all the *ist D and previous K cameras - the outer shell is just too plasticky somehow afterall.
I don't treat my gears rough so I don't know how much they could take. But go by the "feel" only, the 40D didn't feel more solid than my DS, just bigger & heavier. In fact I think Nikon and Olympus bodies are better assembled though the feel could be deceiving. But my most concern is the sudden death with Canon gears like the err99. I know Pentax gears enough that I trust they won't die on me, let's hope the Canon won't disappoint me.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
All in all, the quick conclusion of mine is that whilst I believe that the K20D should be the best DSLR body ever made by Pentax in the Pentax land. It just fell short of many things in the competition and by no means it is really a wise choice to choose by considering its relatively high price tag which it is just not worth by judging in any ways unless we are tied firmly to the Pentax system. Frankly, if I am starting from scratch, why not buy a D300 or a 40D at about the same price, which has better and faster AF, faster shooting frame rate, better build quality, less shutter lag, less "classic" Pentax specified and unique problems, a stronger and more comprehensive system, better customer support and so on.
Given the same price point, I personally think 40D is a better buy (not the reason I bought it however). But if Pentax managed to match the same AF performance on the next model (could be a long shot), Pentax could make a serious come back. IMHO, the AF issue alone has been dragging Pentax down for 2 decades and it is time to address it once and for all if they wanted to survive. Features may attract buyers, but only the actual performance will make them stay.
03-09-2008, 02:04 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
Shit, if Pentax asked you if you wanted them to spend money and time on live view or low noise, what would you pick?
Could I choose low noise and better AF?
03-09-2008, 02:59 AM   #43
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I have to hand it to you RH... You know how to get them stirred up. A master of control lol... I don't see what the big deal is... No camera is perfect and never will be because we as humans will always want more, more more more. I haven't even looked hard at the specs of the k20d, enough to see that the frame rate is still slow just like the last one lol... but.... oh well... my k10d does fine and im actually shooting with my 35mm ME Super and developing with my darkroom setup more than shooting digital as of late, I find that I concentrate on the photos more that way. I think you all need to step back and look at the big picture. Yes the tech aspect of this hobby is exciting and fun to learn and talk about, but its not worth getting worked up over... lol unless you enjoy it... if that be the case than you should read all of RH's post on pentax cameras lol
03-09-2008, 03:30 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
Could I choose low noise and better AF?
Amen to that, throw live view entirely and spend the time on something else, AF, noise, whatever.
03-09-2008, 06:57 AM   #45
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Wow. It wasn't so long ago that most canon users would say
"Pentax? Never heard of a Pentax." - and look at how far Pentax has come, canon trolls have to continuously come over here justifying, to the world, their decision making process over a camera brand. I'm sure psychiatrists everywhere are rubbing there hands with glee.

Rice high and I have a lot in common - neither one of us owns a Pentax K10D and both of us have played with a Pentax K20D - so I feel confident in claiming to be just as expert as RH in giving an effective review.
Anyway the K20D I played with had a 16-50 F2.8 mounted on it and compared to my *istDS in a dimly lit shop it focussed fast, very fast. Loved the bigger screen on the back and the larger font size in the menu was a bonus. Live view looked fine to me ( I still find the whole concept a bit gimmicky though).
Above all else though it has the looks - it looks like a classy camera, feels like a classy camera.

Anyway that ends my expert review.

So Alan Chan, Mutley & Rice High I am happy that you like your canons (or Nikons or what evers) just please accept that I like my Pentax and it looks as if If I already like the K20D which I will be buying very soon.
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