My First K20D Hands-on Impressions

nostatic · 03-09-2008, 11:28 AM

My Nikon makes really lousy espresso. And it also doesn't autofocus well when I leave the lens cap on. In fact, in these "low light" situations, it takes really crappy pictures.

I blame Nikon and their luddite engineers...

lol101 · 03-09-2008, 12:32 PM

I don't get it.

Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions...

... and we're on page 4 of discussing these?

0 knowledge, 0 experience, 0 pictures, 0 credibility... just some guy's impressions.

I tryied a 5D in a store once, should I write a review?

Stratman · 03-09-2008, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by lol101

I don't get it.

Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions...

... and we're on page 4 of discussing these?

0 knowledge, 0 experience, 0 pictures, 0 credibility... just some guy's impressions.

I tryied a 5D in a store once, should I write a review?

Yes you should, and make sure to look for only things that you don't like, Ignore anything good about it !!

flyer · 03-09-2008, 01:03 PM

I wonder if Rice High is not that undercover agent hired by Canon (better known in Canon circle under the acronym A H) to discredit other manufacturer's products so theirs could look better (actually, I don't really think anybody at this level needs to go to such extent to valorize their products). But I think comparing things to Canon the way he does, it's a disservice to Canon's users. Fortunately for him, since nobody really knows his real name or whereabouts, he can still roam the internet (and the streets) safely!

mutley · 03-09-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Maxington

Shit, if Pentax asked you if you wanted them to spend money and time on live view or low noise, what would you pick?

Well, if we're going to define "low noise" as the thing Pentax focused on to beat the competition, already in GordonBGoode's tests using his own RAW converter the readout & shot noise of the K20D is about 20~% worse than the D300 when you up-rez the D300 image to the same size as the K20D - seemingly due to noisy ADC's. Chroma noise is considered more important to Nikon, and NR settings on the K20D favor luminance removal that smears more details. Pentax just doesn't care very much about chroma noise removal.

And, last year's D300 has contrast-detect AF in live view in their 3" hi-rez screen avoiding mirror clunk.

Originally posted by Falcons

So Alan Chan, Mutley & Rice High I am happy that you like your canons (or Nikons or what evers)

Don't have a Canon or Nikon. Went from film OM-4T, OM-2n cameras directly to the K10D, which I still have and enjoy. Just want Pentax to be the best they can be, not just the best that a few loud Pentax groupies think is "good enough".

Most of the suggestions I make are not involving much additional hardware cost if any.

With enough beta testers and the NDA-preferred constantly telling Pentax that things like featureless Live-View compared to this year's offerings, and non-existent predictive, and slow low-light AF is "good enough" - Pentax AF & Live-View will always lag behind. Beta testers going back to Pentax with at most a meek suggestion that AF could be faster, but, but, but, don't worry Pentax, its really good enough "for what I shoot", is why there are only slight software tweaks for years.

And, being only software tweaks producing a "noticeable" difference - Pentax still makes a point to announce that the K10D will never get the firmware update to have these improvements - or any firmware update ever again for any improvements!

Good try. That technique is not forcing anyone to buy a K20D. And, a K10D firmware update will not prevent any K20D sales, either.

jgredline · 03-09-2008, 02:00 PM

Rice High...
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are an idiot....
Thats all I wanted to say for now.

Jimbo · 03-09-2008, 02:56 PM

Quote:

It forces a major Paradigm shift that can often cause major depression and possible PSYCHOSIS in those who have come from a less "Centered" and "STABLE...ized" environment.

God you crack me up! Too funny.

I think RH is rolling around on the floor laughing at all this. I'm guessing this thread will climb to 100 posts!

Not Registered · 03-09-2008, 03:10 PM

Shouldnt the moderators (JON and Chris) moderate instead on adding wood to the fire. I cant help myself to feel amazed by the "hit the puppet" game that most of the people practice and that now is being sponsorized by the moderator themselves. Maybe they should just ban RH or ban themselves or ban me or ban the pentax k20d out of the forum.

Maxington · 03-09-2008, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by mutley

Well, if we're going to define "low noise" as the thing Pentax focused on to beat the competition, already in GordonBGoode's tests using his own RAW converter the readout & shot noise of the K20D is about 20~% worse than the D300 when you up-rez the D300 image to the same size as the K20D - seemingly due to noisy ADC's. Chroma noise is considered more important to Nikon, and NR settings on the K20D favor luminance removal that smears more details. Pentax just doesn't care very much about chroma noise removal.

I'm not knocking the D300, its probably the best camera in its class at the moment, and I'm not knocking GordonBGood's testing either, but I'll wait for an actual in-depth review to see what the noise looks like at a visible level. Often we get caught in chasing tiny variances and 100% crops and forget that you can't actually see that. Not that I expect the K20D to beat the Nikon at low noise.

The D300 is also $500 more expensive than the Pentax. I'd bloody hope it would beat the Pentax at that price jump.

Tell the truth I'm still undecided on the K20D, the only other alternative for myself is Olympus (weathersealing), and their DR and noise is worse than Pentax, so shrug, gotta pick what fits your needs.

distudio · 03-09-2008, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Gruoso

Shouldnt the moderators (JON and Chris) moderate instead on adding wood to the fire. I cant help myself to feel amazed by the "hit the puppet" game that most of the people practice and that now is being sponsorized by the moderator themselves. Maybe they should just ban RH or ban themselves or ban me or ban the pentax k20d out of the forum.

Yes it's amazing how rude some people here are, RH talks about a bit of equipment then everyone slams RH the person, surely he has just as much right to express an opinion as anyone else? The unmitigated gushing praise I see here and elsewhere for Pentax products that I know foibles and all often makes me gag.

benjikan · 03-09-2008, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by jgredline

Rice High...
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are an idiot....
Thats all I wanted to say for now.

In reading this, I can't imagine how he could take it the wrong way....

kenyee · 03-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

The AWB is not totally ideal, though - it just looks better but not perfect.
...
I am not impressed with the overall build quality of the K20D.

Errr...which camera has perfect AWB? I see gripes in the Nikon/Canon forums all the time. Get that WhiBal card I suggested you get yet? It's really something that is needed for anyone who really cares about WB in a digital camera. You'll really wonder why you never added it to your workflow...

I'd have to disagree about the build quality. If you were clubbed by one of the members of this forum w/ a K20D, 40D, or D300, which one would most likely come away w/ the least amount of damage?

**Sailor** · 03-09-2008, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by lol101

I don't get it.

Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions...

... and we're on page 4 of discussing these?

Well said, my friend. This thread clearly supports what I - modestly - call The Sailor Postulate: "The Functional Value of a Thread in an Enthusiast Forum is Inversely Proportional to its Length." There are exceptions (like threads about pictures someone has actually taken) - but they are few and far between; such exceptions are, of course, a natural consequence of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

The entertainment value of longer threads is still under study at the Sailor Institute for Extended Bloviation; depending on how the equations develop, this massive effort may produce what we hope to call The Sailor Conjecture - but right now the quantum mechanical calculations are driving us nuts so it may be a while. Nevertheless, we hope ultimately to publish either in Nature or Science, although I would be satisfied to see the paper in Physics Today, The Journal of Medicinal Chemistry or something like The Journal of Applied Polymer Science (actually, most of us just want to see our names in The New York Times). We'll continue to labor and hope for the best.

Another observation that we - in the Institute - have recorded: a potentially long thread can be abruptly truncated by the insertion of actual data that are demonstrably reproducible. We plan to tackle this phenomenon when we complete our labors on The Sailor Conjecture.

Jer

Tingchaleun · 03-09-2008, 05:20 PM

HAHA, wow. Visiting this thread, and reading through all of the posts is like reliving the drama before a great historical battle ensues. It reveals a lot of personal prejudices. I am not going to claim that i "know" anybody here however. So, i can't really join in on the 'RH' bashing. But, i'm going to keep this thread in mind the next time RH posts something again. Threads like this give the forum character (LOL).

nostatic · 03-09-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by kenyee

Errr...which camera has perfect AWB?

I didn't know that Average White Band songs could be had in a camera. Does that mean if you drop your camera you don't need to Pick Up the Pieces?

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03-09-2008, 11:28 AM	#46
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	My Nikon makes really lousy espresso. And it also doesn't autofocus well when I leave the lens cap on. In fact, in these "low light" situations, it takes really crappy pictures. I blame Nikon and their luddite engineers...

03-09-2008, 12:32 PM	#47
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	I don't get it. Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions... ... and we're on page 4 of discussing these? 0 knowledge, 0 experience, 0 pictures, 0 credibility... just some guy's impressions. I tryied a 5D in a store once, should I write a review?

03-09-2008, 12:34 PM	#48
Stratman Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St Louis, Missouri U S A Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,464	Originally posted by lol101 I don't get it. Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions... ... and we're on page 4 of discussing these? 0 knowledge, 0 experience, 0 pictures, 0 credibility... just some guy's impressions. I tryied a 5D in a store once, should I write a review? Yes you should, and make sure to look for only things that you don't like, Ignore anything good about it !!

03-09-2008, 01:03 PM	#49
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	I wonder if Rice High is not that undercover agent hired by Canon (better known in Canon circle under the acronym A H) to discredit other manufacturer's products so theirs could look better (actually, I don't really think anybody at this level needs to go to such extent to valorize their products). But I think comparing things to Canon the way he does, it's a disservice to Canon's users. Fortunately for him, since nobody really knows his real name or whereabouts, he can still roam the internet (and the streets) safely!

03-09-2008, 01:54 PM	#50
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by Maxington Shit, if Pentax asked you if you wanted them to spend money and time on live view or low noise, what would you pick? Well, if we're going to define "low noise" as the thing Pentax focused on to beat the competition, already in GordonBGoode's tests using his own RAW converter the readout & shot noise of the K20D is about 20~% worse than the D300 when you up-rez the D300 image to the same size as the K20D - seemingly due to noisy ADC's. Chroma noise is considered more important to Nikon, and NR settings on the K20D favor luminance removal that smears more details. Pentax just doesn't care very much about chroma noise removal. And, last year's D300 has contrast-detect AF in live view in their 3" hi-rez screen avoiding mirror clunk. Originally posted by Falcons So Alan Chan, Mutley & Rice High I am happy that you like your canons (or Nikons or what evers) Don't have a Canon or Nikon. Went from film OM-4T, OM-2n cameras directly to the K10D, which I still have and enjoy. Just want Pentax to be the best they can be, not just the best that a few loud Pentax groupies think is "good enough". Most of the suggestions I make are not involving much additional hardware cost if any. With enough beta testers and the NDA-preferred constantly telling Pentax that things like featureless Live-View compared to this year's offerings, and non-existent predictive, and slow low-light AF is "good enough" - Pentax AF & Live-View will always lag behind. Beta testers going back to Pentax with at most a meek suggestion that AF could be faster, but, but, but, don't worry Pentax, its really good enough "for what I shoot", is why there are only slight software tweaks for years. And, being only software tweaks producing a "noticeable" difference - Pentax still makes a point to announce that the K10D will never get the firmware update to have these improvements - or any firmware update ever again for any improvements! Good try. That technique is not forcing anyone to buy a K20D. And, a K10D firmware update will not prevent any K20D sales, either.

03-09-2008, 02:00 PM	#51
jgredline Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: LosAngeles, Ca. Photos: Albums Posts: 10,628	Rice High... Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are an idiot.... Thats all I wanted to say for now.

03-09-2008, 02:56 PM	#52
Jimbo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,368	Quote: It forces a major Paradigm shift that can often cause major depression and possible PSYCHOSIS in those who have come from a less "Centered" and "STABLE...ized" environment. God you crack me up! Too funny. I think RH is rolling around on the floor laughing at all this. I'm guessing this thread will climb to 100 posts!

03-09-2008, 03:10 PM	#53
Not Registered Guest	Shouldnt the moderators (JON and Chris) moderate instead on adding wood to the fire. I cant help myself to feel amazed by the "hit the puppet" game that most of the people practice and that now is being sponsorized by the moderator themselves. Maybe they should just ban RH or ban themselves or ban me or ban the pentax k20d out of the forum.

03-09-2008, 03:19 PM	#54
Maxington Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 255	Originally posted by mutley Well, if we're going to define "low noise" as the thing Pentax focused on to beat the competition, already in GordonBGoode's tests using his own RAW converter the readout & shot noise of the K20D is about 20~% worse than the D300 when you up-rez the D300 image to the same size as the K20D - seemingly due to noisy ADC's. Chroma noise is considered more important to Nikon, and NR settings on the K20D favor luminance removal that smears more details. Pentax just doesn't care very much about chroma noise removal. I'm not knocking the D300, its probably the best camera in its class at the moment, and I'm not knocking GordonBGood's testing either, but I'll wait for an actual in-depth review to see what the noise looks like at a visible level. Often we get caught in chasing tiny variances and 100% crops and forget that you can't actually see that. Not that I expect the K20D to beat the Nikon at low noise. The D300 is also $500 more expensive than the Pentax. I'd bloody hope it would beat the Pentax at that price jump. Tell the truth I'm still undecided on the K20D, the only other alternative for myself is Olympus (weathersealing), and their DR and noise is worse than Pentax, so shrug, gotta pick what fits your needs.

03-09-2008, 03:31 PM	#55
distudio Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sydney Photos: Albums Posts: 450	Originally posted by Gruoso Shouldnt the moderators (JON and Chris) moderate instead on adding wood to the fire. I cant help myself to feel amazed by the "hit the puppet" game that most of the people practice and that now is being sponsorized by the moderator themselves. Maybe they should just ban RH or ban themselves or ban me or ban the pentax k20d out of the forum. Yes it's amazing how rude some people here are, RH talks about a bit of equipment then everyone slams RH the person, surely he has just as much right to express an opinion as anyone else? The unmitigated gushing praise I see here and elsewhere for Pentax products that I know foibles and all often makes me gag.

03-09-2008, 03:47 PM	#56
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	Originally posted by jgredline Rice High... Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are an idiot.... Thats all I wanted to say for now. In reading this, I can't imagine how he could take it the wrong way....

03-09-2008, 04:19 PM	#57
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by RiceHigh The AWB is not totally ideal, though - it just looks better but not perfect. ... I am not impressed with the overall build quality of the K20D. Errr...which camera has perfect AWB? I see gripes in the Nikon/Canon forums all the time. Get that WhiBal card I suggested you get yet? It's really something that is needed for anyone who really cares about WB in a digital camera. You'll really wonder why you never added it to your workflow... I'd have to disagree about the build quality. If you were clubbed by one of the members of this forum w/ a K20D, 40D, or D300, which one would most likely come away w/ the least amount of damage?

03-09-2008, 05:06 PM	#58
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,203	Originally posted by lol101 I don't get it. Some random guy walks into a store, tries a camera (two actually) and then.... writes his impressions... ... and we're on page 4 of discussing these? Well said, my friend. This thread clearly supports what I - modestly - call The Sailor Postulate: "The Functional Value of a Thread in an Enthusiast Forum is Inversely Proportional to its Length." There are exceptions (like threads about pictures someone has actually taken) - but they are few and far between; such exceptions are, of course, a natural consequence of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The entertainment value of longer threads is still under study at the Sailor Institute for Extended Bloviation; depending on how the equations develop, this massive effort may produce what we hope to call The Sailor Conjecture - but right now the quantum mechanical calculations are driving us nuts so it may be a while. Nevertheless, we hope ultimately to publish either in Nature or Science, although I would be satisfied to see the paper in Physics Today, The Journal of Medicinal Chemistry or something like The Journal of Applied Polymer Science (actually, most of us just want to see our names in The New York Times). We'll continue to labor and hope for the best. Another observation that we - in the Institute - have recorded: a potentially long thread can be abruptly truncated by the insertion of actual data that are demonstrably reproducible. We plan to tackle this phenomenon when we complete our labors on The Sailor Conjecture. Jer

03-09-2008, 05:20 PM	#59
Tingchaleun Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 166	HAHA, wow. Visiting this thread, and reading through all of the posts is like reliving the drama before a great historical battle ensues. It reveals a lot of personal prejudices. I am not going to claim that i "know" anybody here however. So, i can't really join in on the 'RH' bashing. But, i'm going to keep this thread in mind the next time RH posts something again. Threads like this give the forum character (LOL).

03-09-2008, 07:36 PM	#60
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by kenyee Errr...which camera has perfect AWB? I didn't know that Average White Band songs could be had in a camera. Does that mean if you drop your camera you don't need to Pick Up the Pieces?