[new2pentax]

ok, this may not matter to many of you. but it does to me.
I've been pretty happy with my Sony DSC R1, and I just spent some time comparing it to the K20D this afternoon.

I would say there is significantly less noise on the K20d, after shooting the exact same landscape shots this afternoon with both.

Sony makes the CMOS chip used by the Nikon D3.
So I was surprised to see a noticeable improvement in noise with the Pentax over the Sony. But it was there.

So, one more reason for me to keep the K20D.
fyi

[little laker]

I really don't see how anyone can call noise an issue these days.
I don't think that I've seen anyone post an everyday photograph taken above ISO800. And most cameras still take decent pictures at that.

Most people that I know of prefer a faster lens, which will usually give you better results anyways.

[matix]

Ha ha.... nice to see that the 'Brown Armed One' is still working his magic, and everyone is biting... Hi to everyone by the way.. miss you guys!!

Phil

[stewart_photo]

Shouldnt the moderators (JON and Chris) moderate instead on adding wood to the fire. I cant help myself to feel amazed by the "hit the puppet" game that most of the people practice and that now is being sponsorized by the moderator themselves. Maybe they should just ban RH or ban themselves or ban me or ban the pentax k20d out of the forum.

Yes it's amazing how rude some people here are, RH talks about a bit of equipment then everyone slams RH the person, surely he has just as much right to express an opinion as anyone else? The unmitigated gushing praise I see here and elsewhere for Pentax products that I know foibles and all often makes me gag.

Gentlemen, take a few minutes to search for RiceHigh's previous messages in this forum and other Pentax forums all around the internet. Many here have dealt with his nonsense for months and months on end. At one time, we openly discussed the specifics he raised, some ligitimate and some absurd. However, the ligitimate issues were already well known and had been discussed to death with either work-arounds found or simply accepted as one of the quirks of the particular camera (every camera has them). Whatever the case, those issues were rarely grounds for most people to utterly dismiss the camera (as RiceHigh endlessly advocates). Today, about half of us don't even waste time discussing his specific comments (the other half do, which is often more than enough), simply because they seldom contain anything new and his predictable conclusion of outright dismissing whichever Pentax camera is being discussed in favor of the competition is obviously an opinion we (in a Pentax forum) do not share.

In the process of all those discussions, we have learned alot about this individual. The most striking is that RiceHigh doesn't own the cameras he trashes. For example, he has posted hundreds of messages over the last year trashing just about every aspect of the K10D, without ever actually owning a K10D or using one for any substantial length of time. And now it appears he is starting on the same path with the K20D, with his comments in the original message likely based on nothing more than a few minutes playing with the camera in a store (if that). RiceHigh is a Canon user (EOS 5D), with no substantial evidence to suggest he has ever owned a Pentax camera.

The initial tendency of all of us was to ignore the troll. However, it is very difficult to ignore a persistent, unfair, and carefully crafted, assault on a product one has invested both considerable time and money in. Especially an assault by someone with no similar investment, but instead an investment in a competing product.

stewart

[distudio]

The initial tendency of all of us was to ignore the troll. However, it is very difficult to ignore a persistent, unfair, and carefully crafted, assault on a product one has invested both considerable time and money in. Especially an assault by someone with no similar investment, but instead an investment in a competing product.

If that's most peoples excuse then it's pretty lame. I've read a darn lot of RH's post here, on his blog and other forums over the years and though I may not always agree with his conclusions I don't need to stoop to personal insults to voice my point of view or defend my choice of photo making equipment no matter how much time, effort or money I have invested in it.

[Buddha Jones]

Rice High = High on Rice, as in rice wine, better known as Sake. 24/7.

[RiceHigh]

I think it's called soft touch back in the film days. Don't remember which Canon model but not everyone liked it either. My old Z-1p had similar characteristic too and switching between the MZ bodies and the Z-1p could result in some accidental shots. But once I got used to it, I like the soft touch better for quick snaps.

I think K20D does not have a soft touch design. I know what you mean for the soft touch, which my MZ-S has, though.

To explain, the soft touch is some kind of "normally off" switch (of course) but where the off only occurs when the button is *totally* un-pressed. Once it is touched slightly, i.e., pressed softly, the AF and AE are activated.

For non-"soft touch" release button, the AF and AE will only be triggered when the button is pressed down to the (much) lower "half press" position where the circuit is closed with metal contact there. In between the button where it is started to be pressed and not until down to the "half pressed" position, the circuit is still NOT YET closed (so no AF and AE to be done in between).

The soft-touch design of the MZ-S is in two stages where there is no clear cut mechanical resistant force barrier for the electrical switching, which all other non-softtouch AFSLRs have, including the K20D. The first stage is for triggering the AF/AE and the second stage is to trigger the shutter. The beauty of this unique soft-touch design is the resistance of the reaction force will be increased gradually until the shutter is fired.

Why I say it is unique. Just take the Canon 5D's shutter button as an example. It is also called soft touch by Canon. But it is not the same thing as the MZ-S. It is more like a traditional half-pressed mechanism but with gradually increased resistance after the half-pressed position is reached. The transition of the resistant force is made to be as smooth as possilbe before and after the half pressed, though (not at the half-pressed position where there is still a barrier of reaction force - which can prevent mis-fire anyway)

So, all in all, what I want to point out for the K20D's shutter button feel which I dislike is that the button resistant force from unpressed to half pressed is very little and felt loose. Nor it is a Pentax unique soft touch design which is excellent (for the prevention of "accidental fire", some adaption is required, which will not be too difficult)

I recently tried the 40D twice at different time just to see how much better the AF tracking was. My sister was helping me for the tests and walking toward me in BestBuy (around 5-6EV I think). With the kit zooms at their long ends, 40D never missed a moment, D80 was about as good but the AF was less smooth at close range, surprisingly the E410 while not as perfect, still managed to tracking much better than my DS with any lenses that I have. My DS with DA16-45/4 was able to take 4 shots in AF-C but it either AF on the background (thanks to the wide AF sensors) or completely OOF (it just kept thinking...). When I checked the raw speed the 40D was turning the lens from one end to another, it was no faster than my DS. So it is not the raw speed that made the AF difference. Based on my experience with the DS (yeah I know K10D/K20D should be faster), I have noticed that as the EV drops, the camera tends to "think" and hestitate a moment before it starts to turn the lens. As it zips in, it would hesitate twice before it locks focus. On rare occasions, it would hesitate once only before lock. I think these are the reasons the Pentax AF suffers for moving targets as it simply hesitates too much. But for static subjects, you rarely notice the difference. Nonetheless, I am convinced Pentax would not seriously address this shortcoming in the near future (should have done it along with the SDM but they didn't), I have just bought myself a set of 40D just for low EV AF & AF tracking. Will be interesting to see how much it helps in practice.

No surprise here and I'm sure your initial practical experiences will be verified again and again when you use your 40D for longer.

Anyway, I could feel much for you. It's not a good thing/feel for us really old Pentaxians who were forced to buy into another system just because of the lack of a better (or maybe even proper, I would say) Pentax DSLR body in the Pentax land, as far as the obvious weaknesses in AF and AE are concerned.

The projector is located on the "forehead" of the prism, together with the focus screen you see the red indicator. If either one was not aligned precisely, the red dots will not appear perfectly centred. If it was not too far off, it might (or might not) be addressed by reseating the screen.

I am not expecting alignment to be perfect for different components inside a camera, especially considering that's just for the sake of an indication which the alignment precision should not be super high (which will waste money for making the alignment). So, what I think Pentax should do to avoid the problem is to revise the design - to make the finder bracket marks and the focus point indication to be on the same component (like the Nikon's design on the overlaid LCD on the focusing screen) or to project red light on the focusing screen's black marks (like Canon have done since their film EOS 10 in 1991, patented?).

As long as Pentax insist too long on such a non-practical solution, the AF red dots will still look ugly forever concerning the alignment unless the user is really very lucky enough (or just don't bother for the shifted red marks anymore, whether he likes it or not).

I think the only concern is that the AF sensor module might not be as precisely as aligned as it should. This might led to miss-AF or thought to be BF/FF. The same applies to spot meter as well, except realign the metering cell is a lot easier.

Yes, as I have said above. Every better alignment with less tolerance and errors will require precision and thus money.

I don't treat my gears rough so I don't know how much they could take. But go by the "feel" only, the 40D didn't feel more solid than my DS, just bigger & heavier. In fact I think Nikon and Olympus bodies are better assembled though the feel could be deceiving. But my most concern is the sudden death with Canon gears like the err99. I know Pentax gears enough that I trust they won't die on me, let's hope the Canon won't disappoint me.

Personally, I found that the plastic material used for any Pentax DSLRs look and feel cheap. The printed texture make it looks even cheaper but not better IMHO.

Given the same price point, I personally think 40D is a better buy (not the reason I bought it however). But if Pentax managed to match the same AF performance on the next model (could be a long shot), Pentax could make a serious come back. IMHO, the AF issue alone has been dragging Pentax down for 2 decades and it is time to address it once and for all if they wanted to survive. Features may attract buyers, but only the actual performance will make them stay.

Not totally agreed here. The low light AF speed and accuracy/consistency of *ist D cameras are way step backwards than those later generation MZ cameras designed about ten years ago, I am sure. The K cameras have better AF accuracy in daylight than the *ist D, but yet the low light AF hunting is just the annoying killing problem which is non-existent at the same not-too-dim indoor environments for those MZ cameras.

All Pentax DSLRs have more AF points than the MZes and most have 11 AF points with 9 crossed (aka SAFOX VIII), mostly. But SO WHAT ? .. IF it will trade off for low light AF performance and speed.

p.s. I have a top and a bottom of the line MZ camera of nearly the same generation, the MZ-S and the MZ-30, which I found both to be quite good for still objects for the AF-S, even at rather low light! Enough said. So, that's what the most disappointing thing here (on Pentax's persistence on a poorer but newer AF system)

[nostatic]

I think ...

You write too. Do you take pictures? Of things other than newspaper and brick walls? If so, could you point to some galleries?

[Maxington]

Ricehigh, since you don't shoot with Pentax digital, why don't you turn your attention to Canon? Suggest upgrades and point out the problems with your 5d?

I don't understand why you waste so much time on a brand you don't even use. A page of text about a shutter button?

There has got to be better uses for your time.

[*isteve]

If that's most peoples excuse then it's pretty lame. I've read a darn lot of RH's post here, on his blog and other forums over the years and though I may not always agree with his conclusions I don't need to stoop to personal insults to voice my point of view or defend my choice of photo making equipment no matter how much time, effort or money I have invested in it.

And quite frankly we dont need you taking the moral high ground at every conceivable opportunity to defend anyone who criticises Pentax, especially someone who is deliberately trolling and bating Pentax for reasons best known to himself and has done so for many years and is banned from every other forum on the internet as a result.

So all the enthusiastic praise of the Pentax K20D makes you puke does it? In my opinion that whole stance is simply misanthropic and arrogant. When someone actually enjoys their hobby and appreciates the camera they bought, they are by inference stupid or irrational and they make YOU sick? Have you ever stopped to consider why any of us should care what YOU think about OUR opinions?

So when you finish retching why dont you go and find a hobby more to your liking instead of trying to tell the rest of us about or moral and intellectual failings, and dont bother replying because you are now one of the select band of numpties on my ignore list.

[distudio]

And quite frankly we dont need you taking the moral high ground at every conceivable opportunity to defend anyone who criticises Pentax, especially someone who is deliberately trolling and bating Pentax for reasons best known to himself and has done so for many years and is banned from every other forum on the internet as a result.

So all the enthusiastic praise of the Pentax K20D makes you puke does it? In my opinion that whole stance is simply misanthropic and arrogant. When someone actually enjoys their hobby and appreciates the camera they bought, they are by inference stupid or irrational and they make YOU sick? Have you ever stopped to consider why any of us should care what YOU think about OUR opinions?

So when you finish retching why dont you go and find a hobby more to your liking instead of trying to tell the rest of us about or moral and intellectual failings, and dont bother replying because you are now one of the select band of numpties on my ignore list.

And yet another personal attack. Well done.

[stewart_photo]

If that's most peoples excuse then it's pretty lame. I've read a darn lot of RH's post here, on his blog and other forums over the years and though I may not always agree with his conclusions I don't need to stoop to personal insults to voice my point of view or defend my choice of photo making equipment no matter how much time, effort or money I have invested in it.

Actually, the short excerpt you quoted isn't anyone's "excuse." Instead, my entire message was an explination. And accepting, without objection, the endless trashing of Pentax products by a Canon troll is certainly your right, just as it is our right to use a different approach without unsolicited judgements (lame, etc) from you.

stewart

[-=JoN=-]

this thread is getting way off topic, and it's becoming more of a distraction than anything.
nothing productive OR conclusive will come of this.

Thread closed