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02-01-2007, 10:06 PM   #31
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Yeah, what was I thinking-fought PC cord nightmares for years; shoulda done wireless a long time ago!

03-16-2007, 06:58 AM   #32
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Does anyone know if the alienbees strobes work on the K10D and and if they will work safely (voltage).
03-16-2007, 07:29 AM   #33
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Good question-even if bumping this old thread is a bit disconcerting to those who thought the conversation finished--like me.

The central issue, as you surmise is the trigger-voltage. Complimenting this problem is the five wires/contacts of the Pentax hotshoe/flash system. Speculation and some trickle of information from un-named/unknown Pentax sources puts the trigger-voltage in the range 3-6 or 3-9 volts. What the contact do besides fire the flash, and specifically which does what is anybodies guess. I personally have decided not to use anything with a stated trigger-voltage above 6volts and a plastic hot shoe mounts with the cleanest alignment of contact to center pad. I also make double sure that both camera and flash or PW unit are in a power OFF state when mounting.

As previously stated, I tried the Wein Safe-sync-it's badly designed. Upon returning the item, I was offered the opportunity to try three other units--all failed.

I traded up to a pair of Pocket Wizards (4 channel) and the whole problem went away. So did a tangle of crappy wires.

I've tried the PWs with Vivitar strobes 283/285, several older Pentax strobes, White Lightening, Briteck, Speedotron, Bowens, SP Systems, Sunpack, Normal, Novatron.... But sadly no AlienBees.

You can probably draw your own conclusions with a reasonable safety factor built-in.
03-16-2007, 07:37 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
Does anyone know if the alienbees strobes work on the K10D and and if they will work safely (voltage).
The AB`s are safe. Low trigger voltage.

03-16-2007, 12:19 PM   #35
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Look...Do this "M"

QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Rothman Quote
Well looks like there have been a lot of viewers of this post but few responders.

I'm still perplexed about this.

Michael
Hello Michael;

I have done about four studio lighting shoots with the K10D. All I have been doing is manually setting my shutter speed generally at very low shutter speeds i.e. 1/8th of a second..But that is not the issue here. Whether I use a radio controller on the hot shoe of the K10D and the receptor plugged in to the Balcar or what ever, if set under 180th of a second it fires? Even when attaching a standard "Hama" hot shoe Synchro X cable adapter, it works. Look, just set your camera to manual. Choose your shutter speed and aperture and if you don't have a light meter start at about 1/125 th of a second at f 11.0 and 100 iso and placing the subject about 10 feet from the source strobe and see what you get and adjust from there in your histogram. In studio only shoot manual. "X" sucks. Why tie yourself down? Play with shutter speeds from 1/15th to 180th of a second. It should work with no problem in "M" mode.

Try this and get back to me..

Ben

Last edited by benjikan; 03-16-2007 at 12:43 PM.
03-16-2007, 12:25 PM   #36
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I disagree..

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Hi, jumping in here with my results.

Wein safe Sync does NOT seem to work with my K10 and standard PC triggered flash-any mode setting. I did try removing the safe sync and shorting the contacts with one lead of my VOM-POP, flash did fire, cable and sync do work.

Seems that until we get some notion of the signals present on the Pentax hotshoe/K10, that we are stuck with proprietary flashes and perhaps the Sigma unit.

PTTL preflash triggers all my photon based slaves pre shutter--also useless.
I have been using the K10D with a radio remote control in the hot shoe and the receptor(receiver) cabled in to the main strobe unit, which has fired several modules no problem. I mean the huge Balcar 2400 watt seconds units all slaved up. I have also attached a standard "Hama" X Synchro adapter that fits in to the hot-shoe allowing a standard cable interface...I work in "M" mode only..

Last edited by benjikan; 03-16-2007 at 12:42 PM.
03-16-2007, 01:15 PM   #37
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Did I miss something? With what do you disagree--keep in mind the big time jump from OP to now?


You're talking about something like this? No isolation from the flash for/to the camera. There are several brands, including a Pentax version---I posted a link in your thread back when you first mentioned flash.

I spent an afternoon testing studio flashes for trigger voltage in a local shop. Varied from about 4v to over 400v. While some brands had lower trigger voltage on newer flashes, some didn't change from pre-digital days and at least one went from about 14v to nearly 60v in a newer unit. I also found some that had a bit of a kick when first powered ON.

While it's not hard to check trigger voltage, it requires one more piece of single use equipment for most photographers. The safer route is to recommend isolation of camera from flash--The Wein--but it's not well manufactured. That leaves radio slaves or Pentax proprietary flashes and cables.

Last edited by jfdavis58; 03-16-2007 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Added stuff
03-17-2007, 03:55 AM   #38
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Disagree Why?

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Did I miss something? With what do you disagree--keep in mind the big time jump from OP to now?


You're talking about something like this? No isolation from the flash for/to the camera. There are several brands, including a Pentax version---I posted a link in your thread back when you first mentioned flash.

I spent an afternoon testing studio flashes for trigger voltage in a local shop. Varied from about 4v to over 400v. While some brands had lower trigger voltage on newer flashes, some didn't change from pre-digital days and at least one went from about 14v to nearly 60v in a newer unit. I also found some that had a bit of a kick when first powered ON.

While it's not hard to check trigger voltage, it requires one more piece of single use equipment for most photographers. The safer route is to recommend isolation of camera from flash--The Wein--but it's not well manufactured. That leaves radio slaves or Pentax proprietary flashes and cables.
My comment was based on the fact that the K10D like any other camera with a hot shoe should trigger any Synchro X connection.

03-17-2007, 10:14 AM   #39
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OK. Interesting how wide ranging this discussion became.

I just went back to the OP/first post only to find he had exactly the same trouble that I did with the Wein SafeSync--exactly, to the letter, the same!

And here we are, down a tortuous path discussing the merits of an old fashioned x-sync PC connection.

As much as I hate to admit this; Ben, you got a point here. The manufacturing of the Wein SafeSync is just barely outside the tolerances that would allow it to reliably function with the Pentax K10D. Aside from the triggering voltage question, had Pentax included a PC type x-sync connection this (entire thread) would have been moot.

You are a little wide ranging in the assertion that hot-shoe capabilities and PC/x-sync capabilities should completely overlap, but across typical studio situations there should be perfect agreement.

Just goes to show that if you live long enough one might see a miracle; you and I agreeing on something might just qualify.
03-17-2007, 05:23 PM   #40
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Interesting...

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
OK. Interesting how wide ranging this discussion became.

I just went back to the OP/first post only to find he had exactly the same trouble that I did with the Wein SafeSync--exactly, to the letter, the same!

And here we are, down a tortuous path discussing the merits of an old fashioned x-sync PC connection.

As much as I hate to admit this; Ben, you got a point here. The manufacturing of the Wein SafeSync is just barely outside the tolerances that would allow it to reliably function with the Pentax K10D. Aside from the triggering voltage question, had Pentax included a PC type x-sync connection this (entire thread) would have been moot.

You are a little wide ranging in the assertion that hot-shoe capabilities and PC/x-sync capabilities should completely overlap, but across typical studio situations there should be perfect agreement.

Just goes to show that if you live long enough one might see a miracle; you and I agreeing on something might just qualify.
First off..Why do you hate to admit I have a point? I have never even considered that any of the dialogue on this forum was a type of one up-manship. Well that is a revelation and something I will consider when posting in the future. How unfortunate.

None the less. I just tested my K10D with a $5.95 Hama Hot Shoe "Cube" Flash Synchro X adapter. I connected the cable to the flash from the hotshoe adapter and it works flawlesly, as it would with the X Synchro if it were an integral part of the camera.

My Multiblitz radio system works flawlessly as well. I wish I could be of more help here. This has never been an issue and I have worked in four different studios since acquiring the K10D all using different brands of flash systems and radio controllers and it hasn't been an issue. Just chose the channel to synchronize the receiver with the emitter and started shooting with no problem. That is all I can provide you with at this point in time..

Sorry..
Ben
03-17-2007, 09:04 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
First off..Why do you hate to admit I have a point? I have never even considered that any of the dialogs on this forum was a type of one up-manship. Well that is a revelation and something I will consider when posting in the future. How unfortunate.
So, do you want to clear the air, so to speak? Want me to explain my phrasing and position? Fine, I work hard to be a blunt, straight from the soul kind of guy. I'm not apt to start a fight; but I never back down nor quit if it hurts.

When you arrived here from DB Review and announced yourself as 'an actual working pro' (that got bounced out for breaking several rules), I immediately associated the terms self-serving, pompous, arrogant, and anal-orifice with your persona. When you further announced your 'connections' with Pentax and offered to 'represent' all us poor forlorn common folks to Pentax-to convey our wishlist and give us a voice, I added several four letter type adjectives to those aforementioned labels.

I asked you about studio flash and got two things, some artsy-fartsy hard-light/soft-light blather and a passing reference to some lights that I did, in fact know about, but not hold in high regard. That exchange had me adding idiot-savant to my description list.

Basically I think you are someone who arrives when all the real work of setting lights, fixing the backdrops, prepping the model and such, is done. Someone who floats in, takes the camera, snaps some shots, sweet-talks with the model to develop a relationship (when she probably would have dropped and spread just as fast based on your pro rep as 'Benji' alone), waves his hands then leaves. I have serious doubts about you even loading your own memory card. I think you have a full blown crew that does the Photoshopping.

And label me with a twisted mind, but the way you initially deflected criticism and spun the dialogs, I still think there must be three people writing your posts! One who takes the insults and actually spews a venomous reply, one who stands between the reader person and the computer and spins that nasty reply to a sickly-sweet high-handed low confrontation reply that is actually posted, and one who does your research. And the third he/she/it got it way wrong on the front/back focus issue. Where again it drew a well spun soft-soap reply or feigned ignorance when challenged. Looked like poor attempt to 'make Ben one of the guys' kinda thing.

It's not that I don't like you; that would take some lengthy face to face contact and experience. I don't like the on-line persona you've created as the 'pro photographer'. Lots of good people make a living from photography without all the anal-retentive, pompous arrogance and shameless self promotion.

I would venture that many folks here are 'professionals' even if their photography sucks. I'm familiar with two budding professionals who actually make good photographs-one is an archaeologist and I think they other is about to become a doctor. I'm actually an engineer (chemical), self-employed.

Well that's my reply to the first sentence.

How long have you been visiting forums? Hell, part of the reason so much information gets mashed and mangled is that forum posts are PURE one-upmanship: me, me, me; I posted the first answer (right or wrong). Like a room full of elementary students reciting multiplication tables. And you really don't need a magnifying glass to see some essentially repeating the same answer with all manner of similarity and paraphrasing.

You'll never (none of the three of you) convince me that you haven't caught that drift in the forums; it's way too obvious to miss. To do that would require the blind, reading to the deaf after hearing from the mute; and I just gotta see that first hand to believe it!


QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
None the less. I just tested my K10D with a $5.95 Hama Hot Shoe "Cube" Flash Synchro X adapter. I connected the cable to the flash from the hotshoe adapter and it works flawlesly, as it would with the X Synchro if it were an integral part of the camera.
Yeah, and I think you got lucky with the trigger-voltage; but this is EXACTLY why I agreed that you made/scored a point. Pentax SHOULD have included the common PC x-sync port AND clearly stated the critical trigger voltage so users could match to studio flash. But that's been a problem with Pentax bodies on and off for a long time. Converts like yourself missed all the history us commoners endured.

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
My Multiblitz radio system works flawlessly as well. I wish I could be of more help here. This has never been an issue and I have worked in four different studios since acquiring the K10D all using different brands of flash systems and radio controllers and it hasn't been an issue. Just chose the channel to synchronize the receiver with the emitter and started shooting with no problem. That is all I can provide you with at this point in time..
And now you've done it again! Common wisdom says radio sync is the way to go; point two. stand by other readers, it's about to become a streak!


QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Sorry..
Ben
And finally, we're full circle-the cutoff sign off. The little "that's all I can provide" and a half sincere "sorry". Right; so it's back to the 'pro-persona'.

Well, I'm out of time too. It takes a lot out of a guy to rescue two damsels in distress and get wounded in the process, but that was my day.
03-17-2007, 10:11 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
no problem. I mean the huge Balcar 2400 watt seconds units all slaved up. I have also attached a standard "Hama" X Synchro adapter that fits in to the hot-shoe allowing a standard cable interface...I work in "M" mode only..
Hi Ben,

I posted about this the other day, and it obviously got missed. I know another poster said you got "lucky" with your strobes voltage, but actually you didn't.

The Balcar 2400 strobes generate 202 volts, so if you use your Hama adapter it WILL burn the circuit eventually. This is not an immediate thing, and if you mostly use your Pocket Wizard, it will take longer as the effect only builds up each time the Hama is used. The mutliblitz seems to be close enough at 6.5 volts since the K10D is ONLY rated to 6 volts. Again I will post a website that shows trigger voltages of many strobe units.

Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

ALSO, I realize that 2 or 3 people have had problems with defective Wein Safe Syncs, but mine is continually reliable and I've heard the same from others far more often than not with the K10D. They make different models, and obviously clean contacts can't always be judged by sight.

The Safe Sync will reduce ALL strobe voltages to 4 volts which is well within (not "just barely") the safety margin of the K10D.

Pentax may just toss you another free body with a chuckle and a wink if your flash circuitry sizzles in a few months, but this won't happen for the rest of us so recommending that a Hama works can be asking for trouble depending on the brand of strobe.

Hopefully this post doesn't go directly to the twilight zone...

Larry
03-18-2007, 06:21 AM   #43
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Exactly

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Did I miss something? With what do you disagree--keep in mind the big time jump from OP to now?


You're talking about something like this? No isolation from the flash for/to the camera. There are several brands, including a Pentax version---I posted a link in your thread back when you first mentioned flash.

I spent an afternoon testing studio flashes for trigger voltage in a local shop. Varied from about 4v to over 400v. While some brands had lower trigger voltage on newer flashes, some didn't change from pre-digital days and at least one went from about 14v to nearly 60v in a newer unit. I also found some that had a bit of a kick when first powered ON.

While it's not hard to check trigger voltage, it requires one more piece of single use equipment for most photographers. The safer route is to recommend isolation of camera from flash--The Wein--but it's not well manufactured. That leaves radio slaves or Pentax proprietary flashes and cables.
This is the exact module I have and tested...

Last edited by benjikan; 04-06-2007 at 02:30 AM.
03-18-2007, 07:08 AM   #44
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Lighting...Who Does it?

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
So, do you want to clear the air, so to speak? Want me to explain my phrasing and position? Fine, I work hard to be a blunt, straight from the soul kind of guy. I'm not apt to start a fight; but I never back down nor quit if it hurts.

When you arrived here from DB Review and announced yourself as 'an actual working pro' (that got bounced out for breaking several rules), I immediately associated the terms self-serving, pompous, arrogant, and anal-orifice with your persona. When you further announced your 'connections' with Pentax and offered to 'represent' all us poor forlorn common folks to Pentax-to convey our wishlist and give us a voice, I added several four letter type adjectives to those aforementioned labels.

I asked you about studio flash and got two things, some artsy-fartsy hard-light/soft-light blather and a passing reference to some lights that I did, in fact know about, but not hold in high regard. That exchange had me adding idiot-savant to my description list.

Basically I think you are someone who arrives when all the real work of setting lights, fixing the backdrops, prepping the model and such, is done. Someone who floats in, takes the camera, snaps some shots, sweet-talks with the model to develop a relationship (when she probably would have dropped and spread just as fast based on your pro rep as 'Benji' alone), waves his hands then leaves. I have serious doubts about you even loading your own memory card. I think you have a full blown crew that does the Photoshopping.

And label me with a twisted mind, but the way you initially deflected criticism and spun the dialogs, I still think there must be three people writing your posts! One who takes the insults and actually spews a venomous reply, one who stands between the reader person and the computer and spins that nasty reply to a sickly-sweet high-handed low confrontation reply that is actually posted, and one who does your research. And the third he/she/it got it way wrong on the front/back focus issue. Where again it drew a well spun soft-soap reply or feigned ignorance when challenged. Looked like poor attempt to 'make Ben one of the guys' kinda thing.

It's not that I don't like you; that would take some lengthy face to face contact and experience. I don't like the on-line persona you've created as the 'pro photographer'. Lots of good people make a living from photography without all the anal-retentive, pompous arrogance and shameless self promotion.

I would venture that many folks here are 'professionals' even if their photography sucks. I'm familiar with two budding professionals who actually make good photographs-one is an archaeologist and I think they other is about to become a doctor. I'm actually an engineer (chemical), self-employed.

Well that's my reply to the first sentence.

How long have you been visiting forums? Hell, part of the reason so much information gets mashed and mangled is that forum posts are PURE one-upmanship: me, me, me; I posted the first answer (right or wrong). Like a room full of elementary students reciting multiplication tables. And you really don't need a magnifying glass to see some essentially repeating the same answer with all manner of similarity and paraphrasing.

You'll never (none of the three of you) convince me that you haven't caught that drift in the forums; it's way too obvious to miss. To do that would require the blind, reading to the deaf after hearing from the mute; and I just gotta see that first hand to believe it!




Yeah, and I think you got lucky with the trigger-voltage; but this is EXACTLY why I agreed that you made/scored a point. Pentax SHOULD have included the common PC x-sync port AND clearly stated the critical trigger voltage so users could match to studio flash. But that's been a problem with Pentax bodies on and off for a long time. Converts like yourself missed all the history us commoners endured.



And now you've done it again! Common wisdom says radio sync is the way to go; point two. stand by other readers, it's about to become a streak!




And finally, we're full circle-the cutoff sign off. The little "that's all I can provide" and a half sincere "sorry". Right; so it's back to the 'pro-persona'.

Well, I'm out of time too. It takes a lot out of a guy to rescue two damsels in distress and get wounded in the process, but that was my day.
Thanks for your honest and somewhat biased opinion of me, but none the less, direct. At least your position is clear. So let me just clarify one minor point. Are you sure you aren't talking about KL, M&M, I&V or DI.

I am a self taught photographer. I never assisted anyone, I learned my craft by trial and error. After twenty seven years of being in the business, I have NEVER, EVER let anyone do my lighting. I do it all. I have assistants who "assist" me, that is physically lift panels, help me mount flash heads to light stands and help put up backdrops. Once the lights are put on to the stands, I set them up, I meter the light and determine if it is appropriate. I design the lighting configuration and design most of the hardware I use for one of my very specific techniques which are well catalogued. One example being "Devine Inspiration". Many assistants who are permanent in house studio staff are often surprised when I offer to help them set up the lights. For them that is a rare occurrence. If thy were to do my lighting, it would not be my lighting. It is as simple as that. They generally end the day by approaching me and often say "Thanks Ben, it was nice to do something different for a change, I actually learned something today." Now, if you doubt me, feel free to contact several studio's in Paris and ask this question. When Ben is shooting with let's say Stephan at "Le Studio Rouchon" in Paris, ask Stephan who sets up the final lighting and who directs it. If you call "Le Plateform" Studio's in Paris ask Yann or Hervé who sets up the lights or perhaps ask to speak to any of the assistants who work there. Most in house studio assistants can't set up my lighting because it is totally alien to them. I have to ask them for a verbal promise of confidentiality when shooting with me, to protect my interest. None the less, I have often seen attempts at emulating my lighting. That will happen invariably. Give me ten photographers with a similar lighting set up and none of the images will be the same. It is their personality that will mark their style. Now if you think I'm full of s--t that is your privilege. Just to add credibility to this diatribe. Please find an interview from "Photo" magazine where I was interviewed specifically about my lighting. I shared a large majority of my techniques with the general public without reservation, but there are some things I will not give away. NOT YET AT LEAST. Better yet contact the "School of Photography" in Orleans, France where I was invited to speak to over fifty students regarding lighting and photography in general. Ask them, who taught them a course in lighting techniques. Everything I learned was by "Accident". I didn't have Blogs or Forums. No teacher, no photographer and definitely no help from sales people in camera stores, who were often frustrated Ryerson Photography School graduates.

Look, when I was shooting at Pin Up studios once, another photographer David Seidner was shooting an ad campaign. I was shooting adjacent to where he was. On the door of the studio was a sign, "Do Not Enter". You see he was fearful that someone might garner some info from him. Well just to spite him, I asked my assistant to put up a sigh saying, "Come on In". Now, guess what happened? David Seidner's assistant came in with a big grin on his face after seeing the sign posted on the door and said "Do you mind if I come in, just curious?" "Of course not, your welcome".

You are right on the mark when you question my technical aptitude. I don't have your prowess. Hey, I studied Architecture! You know, the guys that the Engineering students despised..."Those Artsy, Fartsy, Architectural School Students". Remember?

Look, you don't have to like me. But I see no reason to attack me or my competence. If you feel better for doing so, well, "Me Thinks He Doth Protest Too Much".

Best Wishes
Ben

Last edited by benjikan; 04-10-2007 at 02:00 PM.
03-18-2007, 07:31 AM   #45
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Multiblitz

QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Hi Ben,

I posted about this the other day, and it obviously got missed. I know another poster said you got "lucky" with your strobes voltage, but actually you didn't.

The Balcar 2400 strobes generate 202 volts, so if you use your Hama adapter it WILL burn the circuit eventually. This is not an immediate thing, and if you mostly use your Pocket Wizard, it will take longer as the effect only builds up each time the Hama is used. The mutliblitz seems to be close enough at 6.5 volts since the K10D is ONLY rated to 6 volts. Again I will post a website that shows trigger voltages of many strobe units.

Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

ALSO, I realize that 2 or 3 people have had problems with defective Wein Safe Syncs, but mine is continually reliable and I've heard the same from others far more often than not with the K10D. They make different models, and obviously clean contacts can't always be judged by sight.

The Safe Sync will reduce ALL strobe voltages to 4 volts which is well within (not "just barely") the safety margin of the K10D.

Pentax may just toss you another free body with a chuckle and a wink if your flash circuitry sizzles in a few months, but this won't happen for the rest of us so recommending that a Hama works can be asking for trouble depending on the brand of strobe.

Hopefully this post doesn't go directly to the twilight zone...

Larry
For personal work I have my own Multiblitz Mini Lite Set and have tested it with them. When I do a commercial job the studio provides the Radio transmitter and receiver for what ever strobe systems they have. With the Multiblitz there hasn't been any problems. What you have to understand, is I haven't owned a studio since 1983 when I left Toronto. The client always rents the studio's? That is how it is done in most centers like NY, Paris and London...None the less, to be honest with you Larry, when it comes to electronic circuitry, I am really a hack. If stuff works, great. I have some understanding, but not up to the standards of many of the members on this forum. All I can do here is pass on info to you of what and what doesn't work for me.

Last edited by benjikan; 03-18-2007 at 08:53 AM.
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