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06-26-2013, 08:05 AM   #1
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A look at APSC compacts - how do PENTAX next flagship compete?

There are quite some APS-C compacts in the market:

1. Ricoh GR (w/ 18mm fix lens)- $799
2. Sony Nex 3N (w/16-50mm lens) - $450
3. Fujifilm X-M1 (w/16-50mm lens) - $799
4. Samsung NX2000 (w/20-50mm lens) -$650
5. Nikon A (w/ 18mm fix lens) - $1100

I wonder:
1. Does this means that APS-C is now a matured format and becoming a more acceptable standard instead of calling it a 'crop sensor'? like how 135mm take over 120 in the film era;
2. More importantly.... how do PENTAX next "flagship camera" compete with them if it is still APS-C size? I know these are mirror-less cameras, but still...

I think, it will be real hard for PENTAX to roll out a APSC camera and call it a "flagship"... and sell it for over $1200. K-50 MSRP is about right price, but then how are they going to price the 'flagship' model? >$1200 seem too big of a gap between it and K-50.

The more I see these APSC compacts, the more I think the inevitable will finally come from PENTAX.

06-26-2013, 08:20 AM   #2
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Pentax/Ricoh's new business model, unfortunately, seems to be putting the same old cameras in different bodies and adding pretty colors.
06-26-2013, 08:54 AM   #3
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Don't forget the Sigma fixed-lens APS-C compacts: DP1 Merrill (18mm); DP2 M (30mm); DP3 M (50mm). All $1000 list....

Although, honestly, they compete much higher up the food chain in terms of IQ, and lower in terms of features.
06-26-2013, 09:39 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
Don't forget the Sigma fixed-lens APS-C compacts: DP1 Merrill (18mm); DP2 M (30mm); DP3 M (50mm). All $1000 list....

Although, honestly, they compete much higher up the food chain in terms of IQ, and lower in terms of features.
Quite a bit higher up - makes anything from any aps-c camera in the pentax line (dslr, compact, etc..) look like decades old technology when comparing IQ, does suck that they are near featureless though compared to current offerings.

06-26-2013, 09:53 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
1. Does this means that APS-C is now a matured format and becoming a more acceptable standard instead of calling it a 'crop sensor'? like how 135mm take over 120 in the film era;
FF is by far a minority compared to how many APS-C cameras there are, but as long as it's around and flagship DSLRs use the format, I don't think the "crop" terminology will go away. For their next DSLR, I think Pentax will try to make something in the same class and price range as the Nikon D7100. That would mean that $500-700 would likely separate the K-50 and whatever replaces the K-5. I think the days of APS-C DSLRs > $1500 are long gone as we now have the 6D and D600 pushing APS-C DSLRs down

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06-26-2013, 10:36 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
I think, it will be real hard for PENTAX to roll out a APSC camera and call it a "flagship"... and sell it for over $1200. K-50 MSRP is about right price, but then how are they going to price the 'flagship' model? >$1200 seem too big of a gap between it and K-50.
Add viewfinders to those mirrorless cameras and they will be close to the same price as Pentax advanced APS-C DSLR.

Pentax advanced APS-C DSLR do not compete with the cheapest mirrorless cameras on the market, but will compete with advanced mirrorless with EVF, and most of them are in the same price range as K5 II.
Panasonic GH3 - $1300
Olympus OMD - $1300
Sony NEX7 - $1100
Fuji X-E1 - $1200
Pentax K5 II - $1150
06-26-2013, 10:47 AM   #7
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We might see either a Sony bridge camera or fixed lens RX10 as well in the APS-C size.

With the same pedigree as the RX1 and RX100, that could be a fierce competitor.
06-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by monoloco Quote
Pentax/Ricoh's new business model, unfortunately, seems to be putting the same old cameras in different bodies and adding pretty colors.
Hopefully this is just a result of bumps that occur during transition. I wouldn't really expect anything too exciting about entry-level camera replacements anyway. I'll say that 2 iterations of a body seem to be pretty commonplace, and as much as I'm sure the K7/5/ii/s body will be missed, it is probably due for a revamp. Of course you could also say it is perfect and continue to change the internals, but that would leave a bad perception for prospective buyers regarding a lack of innovation (and even current owners). Surely the K5 body will be missed, but I still miss the K10/20 body too! Ultimately, a new, Ricoh backed flagship is due, and stat! Killer pricing I would peg at $1,299 for the body, $1,399 with 18-55 WR kit and a sure mover would be $1,499 (or $1,549) for an 18-135mm kit.

06-26-2013, 11:25 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
We might see either a Sony bridge camera or fixed lens RX10 as well in the APS-C size.

With the same pedigree as the RX1 and RX100, that could be a fierce competitor.
I bet if Sony comes out with the APS-C RX10 fixed lens compact it will have a zoom lens like the RX100 or a fast 28-35mm eqiv like the RX1.
06-26-2013, 01:54 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Add viewfinders to those mirrorless cameras and they will be close to the same price as Pentax advanced APS-C DSLR.

Pentax advanced APS-C DSLR do not compete with the cheapest mirrorless cameras on the market, but will compete with advanced mirrorless with EVF, and most of them are in the same price range as K5 II.
Panasonic GH3 - $1300
Olympus OMD - $1300
Sony NEX7 - $1100
Fuji X-E1 - $1200
Pentax K5 II - $1150
OK, make sense!
07-04-2013, 11:47 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
FF is by far a minority compared to how many APS-C cameras there are, but as long as it's around and flagship DSLRs use the format, I don't think the "crop" terminology will go away. For their next DSLR, I think Pentax will try to make something in the same class and price range as the Nikon D7100. That would mean that $500-700 would likely separate the K-50 and whatever replaces the K-5. I think the days of APS-C DSLRs > $1500 are long gone as we now have the 6D and D600 pushing APS-C DSLRs down
I totally agree.

Furthermore, Pentax has everything going for it in most areas of still photography features, plus build, ergonomics and lens ethos. But.... they have to step up in autofocus performance and get a more serious data processor pronto. And then, video implementation (not me personally, but the marketplace and reviewers it seems). And then there are the innovations that Sony and Canon are creating with phase detection autofocus and their approach to mirrors and finders. Lens selection is being mitigated by Tamron and Sigma, but unfortunately not by Pentax. If they went WR with everything, and started putting DC lens motors in, they'd start to catch up.

But overall, the mirrorless implementations are driving the business forward. I'm personally not ready to live without an optical finder. Don't even like the Sony EVF's much. So, we'll have to see what the marketplace dictates.
07-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #12
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To me, the GR and DPxm series (esp. the latter) represent a new way for photographers to use/carry/configure their systems.
IQ that is very good and good enough for all purposes and in the case of the DPxm series, probably good for the next 5 or more years if not more.
Its no longer like the old days where one buys a fix lens camera and worry about the IQ not being up to scratch within 1-2 camera cycles.

I see the GR (GR+WA attachment) or a DP1m being used as the WA lens (system) and in combination with a dslr that provides versatility and coverage from Normal to Tele as a viable combination.
Certainly smaller/lighter than a aps-c DSLR+14/2.8.

The next Pentax flagship, being more versatile than a fix lens compact will alway have that advantage of changing lenses.
It will also have the advantage of faster dslr style handling.
If the mp goes up to 24mp w/o AA filter, I can see it being good enough for all purposes and close the gap again on the likes of 20-24mp FF (ie. D600; 6D; ) and GR/DPxm.
It will not be 'best', but certainly good enough with the pros/cons of DSLRs, aps-c.
It will not make sense to be priced too high though.
A 6D is only about US$1700 in Japan.
An aps-c dslr will have to fight the mystique of FF to get to that sort of RRP.
It can have better AF, DR, even high ISO and features, but its going to be a hard sell.
One that perhaps Canikon can do with their marketing muscle (eg. rumoured 7DII; D400) but not Pentax.
So I'd expect the next flagship aps-c from Pentax to be in the K5IIs price range (-/+$150)
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