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03-22-2008, 04:09 AM   #1
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K20D "D" Range vs 100 iso

I have ben testing the "D" Range and am amazed by the increase of dynamic range. I would reasonably give it between a 10-20 percent increase. That is purely subjective of course. The down side is the slight increase in grain in the shadow areas. Of course there is also the subtle color gradation increase that is a result of the 14 bit "D" range engine. In the default 100-6400 range the K20D uses 12 bits. I may stay with the normal range when I am controlling my light to get the maximum fineness i.e.minimum grain at 100 iso, but am not sure as yet. French magazine "Reponces Photo" suggest keeping the "D" range set as the default and stated an increase of about 7-10 percent maximum in their tests. That is quite good actually.

None the less, I am still on the fence as to the choices I will make. I guess it will depend on the lighting I impose for my productions.

Any comments?

Ben

03-22-2008, 05:56 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I have ben testing the "D" Range and am amazed by the increase of dynamic range. I would reasonably give it between a 10-20 percent increase. That is purely subjective of course. The down side is the slight increase in grain in the shadow areas. Of course there is also the subtle color gradation increase that is a result of the 14 bit "D" range engine. In the default 100-6400 range the K20D uses 12 bits. I may stay with the normal range when I am controlling my light to get the maximum fineness i.e.minimum grain at 100 iso, but am not sure as yet. French magazine "Reponces Photo" suggest keeping the "D" range set as the default and stated an increase of about 7-10 percent maximum in their tests. That is quite good actually.

None the less, I am still on the fence as to the choices I will make. I guess it will depend on the lighting I impose for my productions.

Any comments?

Ben
I think the lightmaster needs no help from the camera

It does nothing that you couldn't do with a curves tool and an ISO100 shot in RAW, as long as you dont blow the highlights.

On the other hand it makes outdoor shooting a bit more foolproof because the camera is effectively giving you extra headroom to expose to the right.

I think I will try it but am inclined to stick to "normal" range and ISO100 in the studio.
03-22-2008, 05:57 AM   #3
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Hi Ben,

I definitely appreciate your experience about the D-range you share with us.

I accept too that you aren't pixel peeping Fair enough. However, a broader community is coming to the conclusion that the "D-range" does nothing more than just underexpose. That it doesn't have anything to do with 12 vs. 14 bit.

There is this analysis by Gordon Good: Re: K20D: EDR *does* affect RAW images.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review who proves it quite obviously.

Unfortunately, you ignored a corresponding remark from kenyee https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/197095-post10.html in the Chasseur d'Images thread you started.


So please Ben,

share your wisdom with us what makes you think that more DR is involved in D-Range RAW mode. Please
03-22-2008, 06:35 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hi Ben,

I definitely appreciate your experience about the D-range you share with us.

I accept too that you aren't pixel peeping Fair enough. However, a broader community is coming to the conclusion that the "D-range" does nothing more than just underexpose. That it doesn't have anything to do with 12 vs. 14 bit.

There is this analysis by Gordon Good: Re: K20D: EDR *does* affect RAW images.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review who proves it quite obviously.

Unfortunately, you ignored a corresponding remark from kenyee https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/197095-post10.html in the Chasseur d'Images thread you started.


So please Ben,

share your wisdom with us what makes you think that more DR is involved in D-Range RAW mode. Please
Both Reponces Photo and Chasseur D'Images state that the 14 bit engine kicks in when using the "D" Range. Even my dear friend Steve Jacob believes that the color gradations would be resolved with more finesse although subtle. I'm still not sure. As long as I meter correctly under controlled conditions the default mode will allow me to shoot at 100 iso. Outdoor shooting is more problematic though.

03-22-2008, 06:50 AM   #5
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I would use ISO 100. You can give yourself d range by combining pushed and pulled exposures from RAW.
03-22-2008, 09:11 AM   #6
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In studio I am not having an issue with the default D-range and am very happy with the complete lack of grain from 100-400 and negligible grain even at 800. I can see a use for it when I am not in control of the light. It all depends on the situation.
03-22-2008, 10:34 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Both Reponces Photo and Chasseur D'Images state that the 14 bit engine kicks in when using the "D" Range. Even my dear friend Steve Jacob believes that the color gradations would be resolved with more finesse although subtle.
Hmmh. Thank You for the additional information.

To a certain degree I think we would all agreee that we are left in the dark regarding what D-Range really means.

Ben, with your contacts into Pentax, can't you urge them to explain such that a pro can understand what really is going on (in RAW)? This would render us all great service, I guess.
03-22-2008, 10:47 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
them to explain .... what really is going on
Pentax and that ? not gonna happen ...

03-22-2008, 11:04 AM   #9
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if the "D" range is good, is there any disadvantage to having it on all the time then?
03-22-2008, 11:12 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
if the "D" range is good, is there any disadvantage to having it on all the time then?
You get more noise in the shadow area of the picture and a little bit less resolution.
03-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #11
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.


Has anyone seen any examples, or could someone post some examples showing a scene captured both with D-Range turned on and with it off? I'm not able to see much difference in my tests, and I'm wondering under what circumstances I should expect to see it's advantage?



.
03-22-2008, 06:04 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
if the "D" range is good, is there any disadvantage to having it on all the time then?
Yes.

According to several sources, D-Range simply underexposes by 1 stop. So, you get 1 ISO step more noise in the shadows and 1 EV more headroom in the highlights. If you shoot RAW, better use the -EV dial and be in full control.

According to Ben though, D-Range kicks in a magic 14-Bit engine giving you fantastic images you wouldn't get without.

My preliminary conclusion is that "D-Range" isn't for RAW shooters.
03-22-2008, 06:14 PM   #13
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What it is doing I can't say for sure be that it is just under exposing that I can say it is not doing.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/22265-what-differe...ally-make.html
03-22-2008, 06:37 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by DAZ Quote
What it is doing I can't say for sure be that it is just under exposing that I can say it is not doing.
Maybe, I've been too brief here.

It does underexposing by pretending a one step higher ISO (which is why you won't be able to select ISO 100 anymore -- if it says 200, it already uses 100 internally). So, you won't be able to see the underexposition on a first inspection. And if you shoot JPEG, a different tone mapping is believed to be applied by the camera so it does make a difference then.

But for RAW it is just this: Underexposed by 1EV for the one step lower ISO.
Something you can control manually yourself: go down on ISO and EV compensation (i.e., shutter speed and aperture remain constant).
03-22-2008, 07:51 PM   #15
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I canít argue that it is just applying a curve and that one could shoot at ISO 100 then do the same thing PP. That is not to say I agree, just I donít know enough on how to show it one-way or the other. Neither can I site a source that I believe shows what it is doing. I do see that it adds some shadow noise, about as much as ISO 200, so if the noise is OK at ISO 200 for someone than it should be OK for them at D-200%. I do think that if all the camera did was some kind of curve this would be very dangerous for Pentax to do. Saying there is more dynamic range when there is not any opens them up for legal problem. Besides if it was just a curve it could do that at ISO 100 and it has a setting to do that in the JPG filters.

All that aside and just my opinion I do think that there is more dynamic range. I think the camera is using the on chip amps for both ISO 100 and ISO 200 (or 200-400 ect at higher ISOs). That is why the camera canít go below ISO 200. If it is doing this and using 14 bit A/D I canít show it but I have not seen anything that I think shows what the camera is doing.

I do have the photos I shot with one of them at ISO 100 and the same settings as the others. The one at ISO 100 looks just like it is one stop slower then the ISO 200 or D-200% ISO to me. I donít know enough on how to pull apart RAW files to say what the camera did to them.

DAZ
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