A modest proposal for a small improvement

wildman · 08-12-2013, 06:21 AM

Did some shooting at a book signing the other day.

Got to the place and sized up the situation, selected the proper lens, set to TAv mode, set aperture, shutter and ISO range to what I thought most appropriate and fired away for two hours.

Got home only to find my shutter speed was all over the place. I must have been inadvertently moving the rear wheel around under the pressure of getting shots.

IMPROVEMENT -
When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting.

Unless, of course, I have just missed such a setting in the K5's baroque menu system. If not there is always tape.

Last edited by wildman; 08-12-2013 at 07:11 AM.

**grhazelton** · 08-12-2013, 06:41 AM

For whatever reason I find that I'm entering sequence shooting mode from single frame mode unintentionally. How often do we need to be able to shift this mode with so little effort?

Parallax · 08-12-2013, 06:53 AM

Moved.

wildman · 08-12-2013, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

Moved.

Thanks

Fogel70 · 08-12-2013, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by wildman

(Sorry got this in the wrong forum please move)

Did some shooting at a book signing the other day.

Got to the place and sized up the situation, selected the proper lens, set to TAv mode, set aperture, shutter and ISO range to what I thought most appropriate and fired away for two hours.

Got home only to find my shutter speed was all over the place. I must have been inadvertently moving the rear wheel around under the pressure of getting shots.

IMPROVEMENT -
When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting.

Unless, of course, I have just missed such a setting in the K5's baroque menu system. If not there is always tape.

I think the best way of avoiding this is to get used to constantly checking exposure setting when you capture images.
It's not very difficult as you have all info available in the OVF, back LCD and top LCD. Then you might also notice if ISO have reached it's limits and avoid images get over/under exposed in TAv.

Are all images correctly exposed? Or might it FI have been bracketing that was enabled?

A lock might not be the best solution as you might enable it by mistake and miss shots when you need to change exposure.

Tanzer · 08-12-2013, 04:31 PM

My old Canon A-1 has a little metal shield that slides up to block the control wheel for just this reason.

I generally like the mechanical controls on the K-5, but one thing that got me the other day was the metering setting. I always use center-weighted. One time, probably pulling the camera in/out of my camera bag, I must have accidentally moved it to the spot metering setting. In the bright daylight I really couldn't tell what was going on until I got home later.

rawr · 08-12-2013, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by wildman

When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting.

This is a strange request. Just make a point to at least check the top LCD periodically to make sure your Tv and Av settings are what you expect, and correct things accordingly. Even during a busy shoot, that shouldn't take more than a second.

Only P mode gives you the button customisation option to disable both the front and rear dials, but P mode may toss your aperture and shutter speeds around a bit, of course, depending on the light.

wildman · 08-12-2013, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by rawr

This is a strange request.

Perhaps this is just peculiar to me.

When I'm out in the field shooting fast moving birds or, like the book signing, around a lot of fast changing people scenes I like to sort of zone out and just be able to completely concentrate on the scene in front of me and not on the gear. This kind of photography is to me a lot like dancing. When you are in the groove with your partner you become one and you sure as hell are not looking down at your feet to make sure they are doing what you want them to do. It's the same for me and my camera for certain kinds of shooting situations - I despise anything that is a break in my visual concentration.

I find TAv mode the best for this sort of shooting I just wish I could set it and forget it and "become one" with my K5.

It looks like I will be adding a small roll of narrow masking tape to my kit.

Fogel70 · 08-13-2013, 12:23 AM

I think you might make this much larger issue than it really is. When you are used to it, checking exposure do not take any focus away from capturing images. It's just like checking the mirrors while driving your car, and something that happens automatically without you really noticing it or have to think about it.

**rbefly** · 08-13-2013, 05:59 AM

Hello Wildman,
I'm with Fogel on this, not quite understanding your question or request. Let me see if I'm reading your dilemma correctly;
In Av, the back wheel control aperture, camera sets shutter to match, ISO stays the same.
In Tv, front wheel controls shutter speed, camera sets aperture to match, ISO stays the same.
In TAv, back wheel controls aperture, front wheel controls shutter, camera adjusts ISO to suit.
At least, this is the way my K-7 is set. OK so far?
When I deliberately set the control mode to TAv, I understand that I am enabling both wheels. I want both functions (time and aperture) adjustable with the respective thumbwheels, likely because I'd rather sacrifice ISO to have full manual control over the other two functions.
The only other way I could have this much control (or, least automation, if you prefer) is in M mode, in which case the camera wouldn't match the ISO and the exposure would either be 'right' or 'wrong'. No correction or over-ride.
Here's the part I don't get. You've selected a mode that enables both wheels and now you want an over-ride that disables either or both wheels?
Can you see how contradictory this seems?
Now, the example of dancing with a partner, joining with the camera for a desired result without checking your feet. All well and good, but by not checking the LCD, you're ignoring your partner. She may be moving differently, but you're so involved with this blissful harmony you don't see it.
Honestly, I don't see this as the camera's 'fault' or the mode setting's 'fault'. It's a mistake on your part, you enabled this mode and now you're (accidently, but still) misusing it.
I'm not trying to start an argument or be harsh, I certainly respect you and your opinion, but in this case your tape idea may be the best solution. I doubt whether many (or any) other users would find any reason to disable a function after they have deliberately set that same function(s).
JMO,
Ron

wildman · 08-13-2013, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by rbefly

You've selected a mode that enables both wheels and now you want an over-ride that disables either or both wheels?

Yes.

Originally posted by rbefly

Can you see how contradictory this seems?

No.

I see no necessary contradiction whatsoever. I am not proposing that the present configuration of TAv mode should be abandoned but, rather, that there should also be an additional optional user setting for those that want it.

Simply put - I tell the gear how I want it to work not the other way around.

And I bet it wouldn't take more than a few additional lines of code in the next BIOs update.

Thanks for your thoughts.

aleonx3 · 08-13-2013, 08:06 AM

I don't think disabling the dial is a good thing... since one might accidentally disable the dial in TAv mode and then forgot about it... in a frantic moment, one might think that the camera is broken and malfunction. However, I think by putting in some control such as minimum shutter, (say 1/125 or 1/250) and maximum aperture can be very useful in some situations... and perhaps, this can only be implemented in USER mode. Then, once the user finishes then he/she can switch back to normal TAv mode, everything will be back to normal.

JinDesu · 08-13-2013, 08:31 AM

Eh.. while it might be a feature that some people may use, I don't think it's a feature that's going to make it through to Pentax when compared to the many other more popular feature requests (like focus peaking colors, for example).

So just use tape, if you are going into a event where you know your aperture and shutter speed settings and you may rub against the front or rear dials. To me - it seems like it's a bit "lazy", because I've never had that issue and I always notice my shutter or aperture settings in my viewfinder. Certainly there have been times when I am caught up in shooting - but I always check my settings when I bring the camera to my eye (because my k-x doesn't have a mode dial lock, so that gets shifted a lot).

RonHendriks1966 · 08-13-2013, 08:50 AM

Well I do use the wheels during shooting to fast change things. Just playing with the aperture or the shutterspeed to create something different or to adjust to the changing situation. So no changes for me please.

carrrlangas · 08-13-2013, 11:21 AM

This doesn´t make much sense for the basic rules of design. As a "safety" measure you could use AE-L button in manual mode to at least maintain equivalent exposures if you accidentally turn on of the wheels...

About turning the wheels accidentally, it can only happen if the camera is put in a bag, hanging off your neck or being hold in some other way than for shooting. Then, this means you are not shooting at the moment and it makes sense to check settings before starting to shoot again. that´s what the top LCD and the info in the viewfinder are for.

08-12-2013, 06:21 AM	#1
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	A modest proposal for a small improvement Did some shooting at a book signing the other day. Got to the place and sized up the situation, selected the proper lens, set to TAv mode, set aperture, shutter and ISO range to what I thought most appropriate and fired away for two hours. Got home only to find my shutter speed was all over the place. I must have been inadvertently moving the rear wheel around under the pressure of getting shots. IMPROVEMENT - When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting. Unless, of course, I have just missed such a setting in the K5's baroque menu system. If not there is always tape. Last edited by wildman; 08-12-2013 at 07:11 AM.

08-12-2013, 08:09 PM	#8
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469 Original Poster	Originally posted by rawr This is a strange request. Perhaps this is just peculiar to me. When I'm out in the field shooting fast moving birds or, like the book signing, around a lot of fast changing people scenes I like to sort of zone out and just be able to completely concentrate on the scene in front of me and not on the gear. This kind of photography is to me a lot like dancing. When you are in the groove with your partner you become one and you sure as hell are not looking down at your feet to make sure they are doing what you want them to do. It's the same for me and my camera for certain kinds of shooting situations - I despise anything that is a break in my visual concentration. I find TAv mode the best for this sort of shooting I just wish I could set it and forget it and "become one" with my K5. It looks like I will be adding a small roll of narrow masking tape to my kit. Last edited by wildman; 08-12-2013 at 08:24 PM.

08-13-2013, 05:59 AM	#10
rbefly Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Denver, Colorado Photos: Albums Posts: 2,030	Not Understanding? Hello Wildman, I'm with Fogel on this, not quite understanding your question or request. Let me see if I'm reading your dilemma correctly; In Av, the back wheel control aperture, camera sets shutter to match, ISO stays the same. In Tv, front wheel controls shutter speed, camera sets aperture to match, ISO stays the same. In TAv, back wheel controls aperture, front wheel controls shutter, camera adjusts ISO to suit. At least, this is the way my K-7 is set. OK so far? When I deliberately set the control mode to TAv, I understand that I am enabling both wheels. I want both functions (time and aperture) adjustable with the respective thumbwheels, likely because I'd rather sacrifice ISO to have full manual control over the other two functions. The only other way I could have this much control (or, least automation, if you prefer) is in M mode, in which case the camera wouldn't match the ISO and the exposure would either be 'right' or 'wrong'. No correction or over-ride. Here's the part I don't get. You've selected a mode that enables both wheels and now you want an over-ride that disables either or both wheels? Can you see how contradictory this seems? Now, the example of dancing with a partner, joining with the camera for a desired result without checking your feet. All well and good, but by not checking the LCD, you're ignoring your partner. She may be moving differently, but you're so involved with this blissful harmony you don't see it. Honestly, I don't see this as the camera's 'fault' or the mode setting's 'fault'. It's a mistake on your part, you enabled this mode and now you're (accidently, but still) misusing it. I'm not trying to start an argument or be harsh, I certainly respect you and your opinion, but in this case your tape idea may be the best solution. I doubt whether many (or any) other users would find any reason to disable a function after they have deliberately set that same function(s). JMO, Ron

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08-12-2013, 06:41 AM	#2
grhazelton Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Jonesboro, GA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,972	For whatever reason I find that I'm entering sequence shooting mode from single frame mode unintentionally. How often do we need to be able to shift this mode with so little effort?

08-12-2013, 06:53 AM	#3
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Moved.

08-12-2013, 06:57 AM	#4
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469 Original Poster	Originally posted by Parallax Moved. Thanks

08-12-2013, 06:58 AM	#5
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by wildman (Sorry got this in the wrong forum please move) Did some shooting at a book signing the other day. Got to the place and sized up the situation, selected the proper lens, set to TAv mode, set aperture, shutter and ISO range to what I thought most appropriate and fired away for two hours. Got home only to find my shutter speed was all over the place. I must have been inadvertently moving the rear wheel around under the pressure of getting shots. IMPROVEMENT - When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting. Unless, of course, I have just missed such a setting in the K5's baroque menu system. If not there is always tape. I think the best way of avoiding this is to get used to constantly checking exposure setting when you capture images. It's not very difficult as you have all info available in the OVF, back LCD and top LCD. Then you might also notice if ISO have reached it's limits and avoid images get over/under exposed in TAv. Are all images correctly exposed? Or might it FI have been bracketing that was enabled? A lock might not be the best solution as you might enable it by mistake and miss shots when you need to change exposure.

08-12-2013, 04:31 PM	#6
Tanzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Perrineville, NJ Posts: 1,375	My old Canon A-1 has a little metal shield that slides up to block the control wheel for just this reason. I generally like the mechanical controls on the K-5, but one thing that got me the other day was the metering setting. I always use center-weighted. One time, probably pulling the camera in/out of my camera bag, I must have accidentally moved it to the spot metering setting. In the bright daylight I really couldn't tell what was going on until I got home later.

08-12-2013, 06:13 PM	#7
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by wildman When shooting in TAv mode there should be a way to disable the front and/or rear wheels so you don't have to think about that under the pressure of shooting. This is a strange request. Just make a point to at least check the top LCD periodically to make sure your Tv and Av settings are what you expect, and correct things accordingly. Even during a busy shoot, that shouldn't take more than a second. Only P mode gives you the button customisation option to disable both the front and rear dials, but P mode may toss your aperture and shutter speeds around a bit, of course, depending on the light.

08-13-2013, 12:23 AM	#9
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	I think you might make this much larger issue than it really is. When you are used to it, checking exposure do not take any focus away from capturing images. It's just like checking the mirrors while driving your car, and something that happens automatically without you really noticing it or have to think about it.

08-13-2013, 07:03 AM	#11
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469 Original Poster	Originally posted by rbefly You've selected a mode that enables both wheels and now you want an over-ride that disables either or both wheels? Yes. Originally posted by rbefly Can you see how contradictory this seems? No. I see no necessary contradiction whatsoever. I am not proposing that the present configuration of TAv mode should be abandoned but, rather, that there should also be an additional optional user setting for those that want it. Simply put - I tell the gear how I want it to work not the other way around. And I bet it wouldn't take more than a few additional lines of code in the next BIOs update. Thanks for your thoughts.

08-13-2013, 08:06 AM	#12
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	I don't think disabling the dial is a good thing... since one might accidentally disable the dial in TAv mode and then forgot about it... in a frantic moment, one might think that the camera is broken and malfunction. However, I think by putting in some control such as minimum shutter, (say 1/125 or 1/250) and maximum aperture can be very useful in some situations... and perhaps, this can only be implemented in USER mode. Then, once the user finishes then he/she can switch back to normal TAv mode, everything will be back to normal.

08-13-2013, 08:31 AM	#13
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Eh.. while it might be a feature that some people may use, I don't think it's a feature that's going to make it through to Pentax when compared to the many other more popular feature requests (like focus peaking colors, for example). So just use tape, if you are going into a event where you know your aperture and shutter speed settings and you may rub against the front or rear dials. To me - it seems like it's a bit "lazy", because I've never had that issue and I always notice my shutter or aperture settings in my viewfinder. Certainly there have been times when I am caught up in shooting - but I always check my settings when I bring the camera to my eye (because my k-x doesn't have a mode dial lock, so that gets shifted a lot).

08-13-2013, 08:50 AM	#14
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Well I do use the wheels during shooting to fast change things. Just playing with the aperture or the shutterspeed to create something different or to adjust to the changing situation. So no changes for me please.

08-13-2013, 11:21 AM	#15
carrrlangas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Joensuu (Finland) Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,761	This doesn´t make much sense for the basic rules of design. As a "safety" measure you could use AE-L button in manual mode to at least maintain equivalent exposures if you accidentally turn on of the wheels... About turning the wheels accidentally, it can only happen if the camera is put in a bag, hanging off your neck or being hold in some other way than for shooting. Then, this means you are not shooting at the moment and it makes sense to check settings before starting to shoot again. that´s what the top LCD and the info in the viewfinder are for.