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03-26-2008, 10:56 PM   #31
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I dont see why everyone is so hard on RH... if you dont like what he has to say just dont reply... I feel like a lot of people around here are scared to look at the flaws of there equipment... Nothings perfect, RH gives critiques...

cri·tique
–noun 1. an article or essay criticizing a literary or other work; detailed evaluation; review.
2. a criticism or critical comment on some problem, subject, etc.
3. the art or practice of criticism.
–verb (used with object)

lol, make sense....? we might not all agree with his critiques and some might even find them bogus... but we all have a right to say what we think dont we? we also have a right to not listen to what others have to say if we dont like it...

03-26-2008, 11:29 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxbling Quote
I dont see why everyone is so hard on RH... if you dont like what he has to say just dont reply... I feel like a lot of people around here are scared to look at the flaws of there equipment... Nothings perfect, RH gives critiques...

cri·tique
–noun 1. an article or essay criticizing a literary or other work; detailed evaluation; review.
2. a criticism or critical comment on some problem, subject, etc.
3. the art or practice of criticism.
–verb (used with object)

lol, make sense....? we might not all agree with his critiques and some might even find them bogus... but we all have a right to say what we think dont we? we also have a right to not listen to what others have to say if we dont like it...
Of course he does Ryan, and I have said so myself on many occasions, that RH's, and others, opinions should be respected for exactly that....their opinion.

However, when one then dismisses anothers opinion as irrelevant, or expects your opinion to be taken as the 'final' or authorative word on a topic, then it gets annoying and even I find it hard to keep quiet or ignore....unfortuneatley there is a long legacy of this practice by some.

Example? Take weather sealing, RH dismisses it as basically irrelevant, not important, hardly a feature worth even mentioning, despite others clearly valuing it as a feature. Personal experience tells me it IS a feature worthy of consideration, how much so is up to each individuals needs or circumstances, but to some people it is important and should not be summararily dismissed.

Another example? Lets look at price, the claim was made that the K200 does not compete on price, yet a quick on line search here in Australia shows it to be very competitive indeed. Clearly a mischievous in-accuracy.

So when does refuting an inaccuracy constitute being hard on some one? Sorry, but nostatic has nailed it right on the head.

Cheers
Grant
03-27-2008, 06:43 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Handled a K200D today and below are my observations:-

1. Body is larger and heavier than that I would like, at least noticeably more weight and bulkier than the K100D. The build quality is felt just a little bit better than the K100D, though, which is similar to the K10D and the K20D. Anyway, the plasticky outshell must not be something that I really like;
What entry level cameras have non plastic shells? In K200D's level, there is only Panasonic DMC-L1 that I can think of?

QuoteQuote:
3. The AF point red illuminated marks are yet again misaligned, as usual. No real surprise here;
Can you get any reference pictures of this?

QuoteQuote:
6. Auto ISO does work even when the Exposure Compensation is applied. The function and setting of the Auto ISO is just the same as that of the K10D and K20D. With the launch of the K200D and K20D and the dis-continuation of other older Pentax DSLR models, it has marked a full-stop for the annoying long lasting Pentax DSLR Auto ISO bug since the *ist D, which has been persistent for five year!(?) But yet, my question is: WHY Pentax do NOT release firmware updates for those other older Pentax DSLR models for all we old users so as to get rid of this annoying old problem completely??
Thats a different camera your talking about, have nothing to do with the K200D? When I read a review about a K200D I don't care if its available on an older camera. You say yourself its not a problem with the K200D.

QuoteQuote:
9. It should be noted that set price of the K200D is the most expensive amongst the latest 10+ Mega Pixel DSLR offers from the brands C, N, O and S. Nevertheless, the K200D still costs less than half of the price of a K20D;
Here K200D is cheaper then;

Nikon D60, D80. Its about 200$ more expensive then the D40x.
Its 100$ more expensive then Olympus 510.
Its cheaper then Sony Alpha 300, 350 and about 100$ more expensive then A200.
Its cheaper then Samsungs GX-10 but costs about the same as K10D.
Its cheaper then Canon EOS 450D and about 150$ more expensive then the EOS 400D.

Pattern is, that if you indeed want to compare it with old cameras, it is a bit more expensive. If you compare it with the new cameras, its acctually cheaper. And the differences are not much at all with any of them.

QuoteQuote:
All in all, I can see a real dilemma here for the existing Pentax DSLR users who just wish to find a better upgrade path, especially for the old K users. The dilemma is that the K200D and the K20D are almost designed and built identically, feature wise and in many characteristics, even for those which are not published, e.g., the improved mirror damping and quieter shutter action (but along with some noticeably system time lag and finder black-out, which are very similar). The major (only) differences, which are obvious or published on paper, between the two latest DSLRs are just on the pixel count (and the new Samsung CMOS sensor) and the new Live View feature of the K20D which is weakest in the market in terms of features and functionality.
Once again, is it K20D or K200D your making a review of? If its the K20D, are you only going to compare the liveview against others?

QuoteQuote:
All in all, I do think Pentax should make a real entry level DSLR (which should be sold cheaper, and more importantly, smaller and lighter) and a real advanced level DSLR (like the D300, that has faster and stronger AF and quicker system responses), otherwise they again could seek no further market share at all, with their current somehow "weak" offers which are unable to compete in *any* market segments (Indeed, I really have big doubts about what are the actual *targeted* market segments which the K200D and K20D are positioned for by Pentax?? which is indeed very unclear, at least to me!)
Seriously, the prices of all entry level cameras, be it Canon, Pentax, Nikon or Samsung, are almost as cheap as a compact camera, if you want it smaller and cheaper, get a compact or one of the hybrids. Sigma DP1 for example is acctually 300$ more expensive then Pentax K200D, and thats a compact camera. The technology is far superior to the compact market in most DSLR's, and I'd say they are having a hard problem already making any cash on the housings as it is. If you want to discuss prices, then lets talk lenses and miscellous accessories. Thats where the price differences will be shown.

Just check the price differences on the DA* and Canon L lenses with IS.

In short, before you make reviews, learn how to do them and how to present them. As it is now its just subjective blabbering about the whole productline from Pentax.

When I bought my K10D I did it because of two reasons, I wanted a weathersealed body with stabilisation inside the house.

The reason I bought a K10D instead of K200D is because of the K200D's weakest spot, in my opinion, the batteries, I am not at all found of the AA. But I am sure that many, many people are, especially those that travels alot.
03-27-2008, 07:27 AM   #34
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The problem with RH review is that it's not really a review. It's just a bias opinion. A review should point out both the pitfalls and also the advantages of a camera. But all he said are pitfalls and with nothing to back those up either.

03-27-2008, 08:16 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by nace186 Quote
The problem with RH review is that it's not really a review. It's just a bias opinion. A review should point out both the pitfalls and also the advantages of a camera. But all he said are pitfalls and with nothing to back those up either.
Which means it should not be publiced at all. Subjective opinions should be kept to oneself.
03-27-2008, 08:42 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxbling Quote
I dont see why everyone is so hard on RH... if you dont like what he has to say just dont reply... I feel like a lot of people around here are scared to look at the flaws of there equipment... Nothings perfect, RH gives critiques...

cri·tique
–noun 1. an article or essay criticizing a literary or other work; detailed evaluation; review.
2. a criticism or critical comment on some problem, subject, etc.
3. the art or practice of criticism.
–verb (used with object)

lol, make sense....? we might not all agree with his critiques and some might even find them bogus... but we all have a right to say what we think dont we? we also have a right to not listen to what others have to say if we dont like it...
Let me ask you a few questions?
1) Are you rice high in disguise?
2) Why is it that when ever rice high is discussed, those threads get LOCKED? like I am sure this one will...
3) Don't you find it odd that a person can go into a store ''HOLD'' a camera and come back and write a review on it, a review that is written in a way to get people upset?
4) Why is it that he a ''proud'' canon owner, comes here to discuss how good his canon is when he is comparing a 3000.00 camera to a 500.00 ''K100D'' That he says he owns...???
5) Why does he not compare that 5D to a K10D or a K20D ? Answer, because if he is honest with himself, he will feel even more ''stupid'' that he already is...
stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

6) He never provides photos of ''his'' work....
03-27-2008, 10:18 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Let me ask you a few questions?
1) Are you rice high in disguise?
I doubt he is and I'm not either. Paranoid much?

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
2) Why is it that when ever rice high is discussed, those threads get LOCKED? like I am sure this one will...
I don't know, ask a moderator. Maybe because of knee-jerk, antagonistic and undeservedly hostile responses?

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
3) Don't you find it odd that a person can go into a store ''HOLD'' a camera and come back and write a review on it, a review that is written in a way to get people upset?
Lots of magazines write up their first glance reviews with just as much research, plus access to technical info, spec sheets, press releases etc. This is done based on their experience with previous cameras. Do you also have a problem with all of them?

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
4) Why is it that he a ''proud'' canon owner, comes here to discuss how good his canon is when he is comparing a 3000.00 camera to a 500.00 ''K100D'' That he says he owns...???
I am glad he is proud of his Canon. And Pentax should measure up to the highest standards, as their ads tell us they want to. Doesn't bug me at all. As for comparing a less expensive body to a more expensive one, don't we do that all the time?

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
5) Why does he not compare that 5D to a K10D or a K20D ? Answer, because if he is honest with himself, he will feel even more ''stupid'' that he already is...
Ah, insults. That's a good way to make your point. Intriguingly the OP does not resort to such low tactics, but his detractors do.

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
6) He never provides photos of ''his'' work....
Well, that is a definite pity, as I think this should all ultimately be about the photograph. However, I see too that you have zero gallery photos. Pot meet kettle?

QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger...
The irony, oh the irony.

QuoteOriginally posted by nace186 Quote
The problem with RH review is that it's not really a review. It's just a bias opinion. A review should point out both the pitfalls and also the advantages of a camera. But all he said are pitfalls and with nothing to back those up either.
Except that he does give positive comments. Perhaps you don't read those but skip to the negative bits. Nowhere did RiceHigh say he was going to be a Pentax fanboy, and in no way would it help the Pentax cause if he was. Reasoned critiques are what we need, and I do not think he is far off the mark in what he says. Perhaps responding to the content of the message and not taking offense at some perceived slight would be a more productive way forward?

P.S. Just to prove I am who I am, this is a photo of some lovely flowers in my front garden. Or maybe someone "planted" them there.



Taken with the 43mm limited, a nice bit of kit made by Pentax.

Last edited by rparmar; 03-27-2008 at 10:20 AM. Reason: typo
03-27-2008, 10:45 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Lots of magazines write up their first glance reviews with just as much research, plus access to technical info, spec sheets, press releases etc. This is done based on their experience with previous cameras. Do you also have a problem with all of them?
Magazines rarely print utter crap though, based on the opinions of holding that camera. For example the fact that the K200D is too expensive compared to the other brands, which is plain wrong. Also, I rarely see magazines have a preview of one camera but whine about other cameras in that review.

QuoteQuote:
Except that he does give positive comments. Perhaps you don't read those but skip to the negative bits. Nowhere did RiceHigh say he was going to be a Pentax fanboy, and in no way would it help the Pentax cause if he was. Reasoned critiques are what we need, and I do not think he is far off the mark in what he says. Perhaps responding to the content of the message and not taking offense at some perceived slight would be a more productive way forward?
His positive bits are more negative of other cameras though. Like the its good there is no liveview because it would suck like k20d". Thats not how you show a positive bit. Same with "if they rebuild the camera to fit me, meaning like the other brands, it will be better.". And he keep raving about k200d is not an entry camera, either its too pricy (except its not) or its too big(?) except some people look for bigger cameras.

Basically, he steps away from facts pretty much on every step, and thats why he dont back his statements up with facts, just babbling of subjective views. Fact is, no camera will suit everyone and if your going to write reviews, previews, tutorials or whatever, you should keep in mind that others might not share your opinions, so facts are what matters.

03-27-2008, 01:57 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
I doubt he is and I'm not either. Paranoid much?



I don't know, ask a moderator. Maybe because of knee-jerk, antagonistic and undeservedly hostile responses?



Lots of magazines write up their first glance reviews with just as much research, plus access to technical info, spec sheets, press releases etc. This is done based on their experience with previous cameras. Do you also have a problem with all of them?



I am glad he is proud of his Canon. And Pentax should measure up to the highest standards, as their ads tell us they want to. Doesn't bug me at all. As for comparing a less expensive body to a more expensive one, don't we do that all the time?



Ah, insults. That's a good way to make your point. Intriguingly the OP does not resort to such low tactics, but his detractors do.



Well, that is a definite pity, as I think this should all ultimately be about the photograph. However, I see too that you have zero gallery photos. Pot meet kettle?



The irony, oh the irony.



Except that he does give positive comments. Perhaps you don't read those but skip to the negative bits. Nowhere did RiceHigh say he was going to be a Pentax fanboy, and in no way would it help the Pentax cause if he was. Reasoned critiques are what we need, and I do not think he is far off the mark in what he says. Perhaps responding to the content of the message and not taking offense at some perceived slight would be a more productive way forward?

P.S. Just to prove I am who I am, this is a photo of some lovely flowers in my front garden. Or maybe someone "planted" them there.



Taken with the 43mm limited, a nice bit of kit made by Pentax.
Yada yada, yada....You sound ''exactly'' like rice high....
03-27-2008, 03:47 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Yada yada, yada....You sound ''exactly'' like rice high....
Good comeback to a line by line refutation of your entire "argument". With Pentax friends like these, who needs enemies?

I think I'll sit out the rest of this round of childish name-calling.
03-27-2008, 04:18 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Except that he does give positive comments. Perhaps you don't read those but skip to the negative bits. Nowhere did RiceHigh say he was going to be a Pentax fanboy, and in no way would it help the Pentax cause if he was. Reasoned critiques are what we need, and I do not think he is far off the mark in what he says. Perhaps responding to the content of the message and not taking offense at some perceived slight would be a more productive way forward?
Ricehigh is a Pentax anti-fanboy, which is just as irritating as fanboys. Fanboys don't get a free pass on any internet forum, why the hell should their opposition?

He's a total zealot in his attacks on Pentax, which means you can't discuss anything with him at all. He may come up with a reasonable critique of a feature, but flat out ignores all the positives that outweigh it, or the workarounds that render it moot, or the fact that its a limitation imposed by the economics of the market and ALL brands do the same thing. Nobody can "respond to the content of his message" because with him, its not a DISCUSSION its a holy war.

Or worse, he'll come up with a "problem", all the actual photographers that use the body go "Hmm, good point, thats true, but it doesn't really matter when you ACTUALLY TAKE REAL PHOTOS INSTEAD OF TEST CHARTS" and he completely ignores it.

Or he whores his blog out. Then on the blog, multiple people destroy his arguments, and he ALTERS his blog to erase the evidence that he was caught talking bullshit.

He's been banned from just about every forum except for this one. What does that tell you?

And probably the most irritating to me personally, he never applies his ridiculous one-eyed "tests" to other brand cameras he actually owns. Where's the massive blog about the pitfalls of the Canon 5D?

So before you defend Ricehigh, as someone new to his bullshit inevitably does, please realise that a lot of people here have a long history of putting up with him. And most of them wore out their patience long ago.
03-27-2008, 07:12 PM   #42
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great this is turning out to be another one of his posts destined to be ...well....locked....

im too busy to really read everything..(OT..gotta make the dough for the gear...)

from my quick read...tho...

why is it that this always happens?.....
03-27-2008, 07:22 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by -=JoN=- Quote

why is it that this always happens?.....
Because Rice high has not been banned......
03-27-2008, 09:02 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by -=JoN=- Quote

why is it that this always happens?.....
If someone walks into a police station and says, "cops really don't do a really good job and here's why...", what do you think would happen?

RH is an articulate troll. "Anti-fanboy" is another good term. He is measured in his posts and clearly enjoys the attention. But he views this as sport or has serious issues with Pentax. I think it was because he wasn't breast fed but that is my armchair diagnosis.

Your board. Your rules. I moderate other boards and we are loathe to ban anyone but some times you have to because trolls or people with personality disorders don't change their spots. In 4 years or so we've banned 3 people. But they never changed and always created or caused threads to spiral down into the cesspool.
03-27-2008, 09:48 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by -=JoN=- Quote
great this is turning out to be another one of his posts destined to be ...well....locked....

im too busy to really read everything..(OT..gotta make the dough for the gear...)

from my quick read...tho...

why is it that this always happens?.....
Hi Jon,
May I suggest that you don't lock this down just yet. I would be tempted to let it run and implore everyone to debate the points raised but do so in an un-emotional manner....and that includes making aspersions about the product.

Why does it happen? Can we have that discussion without offending anyone?

I think it happens because someone has an axe to grind, dating back several years, and will not (can not) pass up an opportunity to sink the boots in.
It is all very well to express an opinion, but in practising that right you also accept the responsibility of listening to the other opinion, which may differ to yours, and then accepting, that well, ok, we agree to dis-agree.

At the risk of repeating myself: Weather sealing is an important feature to some people....let the individual choose how much so, sweeping dismissive statements to the contrary are just plain silly....I don't know what is important to someone else nor do they know what I value in a camera.

Price: The K200D is not only competitive, it is significantly CHEAPER than some of the marques named. I note no apology has been forthcoming for this in-accuracy...just silence.

Value: The K200D represents great feature packed value, weather sealing, AA batteries, SR that works on any K mount lens ever made (this is just so understated...as my daughter is discovering having bought a Nikon and now finding about Nikon lens compatibility & $$$$$$) just to name a few.

"Fan boys"....??...not sure what this means...does it apply to me? I have no idea and neither do I care. I bought Pentax because it met my needs at a price I could afford and I continue to stay with Pentax because I am happy with the damned camera!! It is that simple.

If I wasn't happy I would buy something else. No announcements. No fanfare. No letters to CEO's. I would simply get something else.

Thats why "this" to gets to this point, because any reasonable person would just simply move on, not engage in this mindless, endless, and boring point scoring.

Why not just keep quiet? I have tried that as I think have many others here, but when I see blatant in-accuracies being offered up in an authorative manner, I, and I note certain others, feel obliged to keep some sort of balance in the discussion in the interest of fair play. I was ambivalent about buying a new camera yet, but this type of commentary has convinced to get one, and it will be the K200D.

Now I hope what I have also proved here is that is possible to enter into this debate without emotion and name calling (though it has been bloody hard to do so!!!).

Cheers and have a great weekend people....I'm off to the footy!!
Grant
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