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03-27-2008, 11:28 PM   #46
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I actually am quite interested to handle the K200d and see how the size and weight compare to my K20d. Having a smaller/lighter 2nd dslr that can use the same lenses is an attractive proposition. My hunch is that combining the K200d with the 40mm ltd is a great competitor to the new E420 with 25mm prime. I think the Olympus body is smaller, but the Pentax lens is more compact.

The entry dslr market is really competitive, and the winner is the consumer. I think that the K200d and E420 are the most interesting, mostly due to the shake reduction in the body. That sets it apart from Canikon offerings. The pancake lenses give a very compact package, but one that is a bit "old school." Perhaps that will inspire a new generation of prime shooters though...

03-27-2008, 11:46 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by -=JoN=- Quote
why is it that this always happens?.....
QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
Because Rice high has not been banned......
No, it happens because of all the childish name calling and verbal abuse offered up by the sworn anti-rh crowd. Its because the people responding go out of line that threads get locked, not because of what rh posts.

I encourage jgrendline and other members of the rh lynch mob to simply add him to their ignore lists, that way his posts and threads will simply disappear from their view so they can finally resist the urge to reply to every rh thread.
03-28-2008, 06:20 AM   #48
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Well..

QuoteOriginally posted by GWP Quote
Example? Take weather sealing, RH dismisses it as basically irrelevant, not important, hardly a feature worth even mentioning, despite others clearly valuing it as a feature. Personal experience tells me it IS a feature worthy of consideration, how much so is up to each individuals needs or circumstances, but to some people it is important and should not be summararily dismissed.
I have never dismissed the "weather sealing" feature which I do like also. My view is just that the weather sealed body is not really useful if an *ordinary* lens is mounted. For the case of K200D, which is aimed for new comers, this cannot be sold as a feature hardly for those if the kit lens is not sealed - at the end, the user still cannot use his new camera (which is a lens PLUS a camera body) in adverse weather conditions.

One may say that the K200D can be used with the DA* lenses. But then don't forget a DA* lens, e.g., the 16-50, is already more expensive than the price of the K200D body alone, which is of course probably will not be the choice of a new comer or beginner to purchase such a combo.

If Pentax really want to aggressively promote the K200D, the 18-55 II kit lens should be sealed, which I think is not a difficult thing for Pentax nor it will add considerably much cost. Then, if it was so, the K200D offer can have the *unique* feature of weather sealing which does work, for that starter setup. The same holds true for the K20D kit set too.

QuoteQuote:
Another example? Lets look at price, the claim was made that the K200 does not compete on price, yet a quick on line search here in Australia shows it to be very competitive indeed. Clearly a mischievous in-accuracy.
In Hong Kong, the K200D is selling most expensive amongst the latest entry level offers from Nikon, Sony and Olympus. I don't know whether it is true or not elsewhere. It is not about any inaccuracy, but just suggested retail price differences in different countries or cities. Of course, I reported the cost which I could get a K200D.


QuoteQuote:
So when does refuting an inaccuracy constitute being hard on some one? Sorry, but nostatic has nailed it right on the head.

Cheers
Grant
I hope my above clarifications can help you to clear out some of your misunderstandings (on me) and for anyone here as well.
03-28-2008, 06:56 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zewrak Quote
What entry level cameras have non plastic shells? In K200D's level, there is only Panasonic DMC-L1 that I can think of?
I said that the rigidity feel is close to the K20D and K10D, which IMHO is indeed very good for an entry level DSLR. But then I do not like plastic outer shell myself anyway, especially for mid-class DSLR and up.

QuoteQuote:
Can you get any reference pictures of this?
Yes, I already had the URL embedded in my original blog article.

QuoteQuote:
Thats a different camera your talking about, have nothing to do with the K200D? When I read a review about a K200D I don't care if its available on an older camera. You say yourself its not a problem with the K200D.
Not agreed with you here. Yes, there is NO Auto ISO Bug in the K200D, and that's what I wished to report. But if new software simply can resolve old bugs, why Pentax just NOT doing a "favour" for their older customer by releasing de-bugged firmwares for all those older Pentax DSLRs sold over nearly the past five years??

QuoteQuote:
Once again, is it K20D or K200D your making a review of? If its the K20D, are you only going to compare the liveview against others?
I think I am not making a review, but just a sum-up on my first hands-on impressions on the K200D. If I did a formal testing review, there must be some measurbations! ;-) .. as the last time I measurbated my K100D!

RiceHigh's Pentax K100D Full Review

QuoteQuote:
The reason I bought a K10D instead of K200D is because of the K200D's weakest spot, in my opinion, the batteries, I am not at all found of the AA. But I am sure that many, many people are, especially those that travels alot.
The AA batteries solution have not been working very well on Pentax DSLRs for *many* users, until the invention of the Sanyo Eneloop which resolve the problem mostly. Not sure about if the K200D suffers from the same problem, though, as it's still too early to tell until if there are new users to start the "adverse" reports.

03-28-2008, 07:01 AM   #50
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Sorry Michael, but I will have to disagree with you. Have you ever been caught in the rain with your camera? What do you do? Probably like most people you will point the lens down and put the camera under what ever cover is available...eg: shirt, jacket, hat, newspaper....weather sealing even with an old non sealed lens has got to be better than no weather sealing. Its logic.

Ever scrambled into the car to escape the rain, put your camera on the seat, only to have someone come along and throw their wet jacket over the top of your camera?.....again, something has to be better than nothing.

I could give you a thousand examples where it has a use, even with an old lens.

As for price, your statement did not qualify where you sought your information from, perhaps you should be a little more circumspect before making such statements.

The K200D is a fine camera with many good and innovative features (and great value), give credit where its due.

BTW, the Lions won the footy in a mighty, mighty match.
Cheers.
Grant.
03-28-2008, 07:02 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
If someone walks into a police station and says, "cops really don't do a really good job and here's why...", what do you think would happen?

RH is an articulate troll. "Anti-fanboy" is another good term. He is measured in his posts and clearly enjoys the attention. But he views this as sport or has serious issues with Pentax. I think it was because he wasn't breast fed but that is my armchair diagnosis.

Your board. Your rules. I moderate other boards and we are loathe to ban anyone but some times you have to because trolls or people with personality disorders don't change their spots. In 4 years or so we've banned 3 people. But they never changed and always created or caused threads to spiral down into the cesspool.
I do moderate one place too for a number of years... and we have a rule - any public
call to ban somebody will lead to the caller being banned... if you have an issue - address
it to the administration of the forum privately and do not assemble a lynching mob here.
03-28-2008, 07:43 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
I do moderate one place too for a number of years... and we have a rule - any public
call to ban somebody will lead to the caller being banned... if you have an issue - address
it to the administration of the forum privately and do not assemble a lynching mob here.
*sigh*

Did you ever see me call to ban him? No...I just offered a parallel universe experience.

The issue at hand is an ongoing series of seriously biased and agendized "reviews." Most communities of enthusiasts would feel compelled to address these types of posts, if nothing else to balance what somebody might find through google searches.

And in fact I tried to thread back on track and talked about why I think the K200d is an interesting camera, and is a direct competitor to the E420. But if you want to drag it back into the muck...you can always contact the authorities. Just don't tell them they're doing a poor job
03-28-2008, 08:19 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by GWP Quote
Sorry Michael, but I will have to disagree with you. Have you ever been caught in the rain with your camera? What do you do? Probably like most people you will point the lens down and put the camera under what ever cover is available...eg: shirt, jacket, hat, newspaper....weather sealing even with an old non sealed lens has got to be better than no weather sealing. Its logic.

Ever scrambled into the car to escape the rain, put your camera on the seat, only to have someone come along and throw their wet jacket over the top of your camera?.....again, something has to be better than nothing.

I could give you a thousand examples where it has a use, even with an old lens.
I don't think optics and glass elements are less vulnerable than electronics which are too as weak and vulnerable for moisture or even water droplets which must be their enemies, if they entered them.

In fact, even minor condensation accumulated inside a lens would leave some traces after the condensation goes away. In long run, it just hurts the glass.

And indeed, I treasure my Pentax lenses far more than my Pentax DSLR bodies (which will be replaced very soon anyway). So, I will never put my non-weather sealed older Pentax glass under rainy or whatsoever environments wherever there is more chance to get them damaged.

Afterall, I think there is not much to argue for a full sealed body + lens to be preferred *over* to seal the body alone - which is practically not much more helpful than any unsealed body with unsealed lens IMO.

Particularly, may I repeat that if Pentax *really* want to promote the K200D using the "unique" feature of weather sealing for an *entry* level DSLR, they should complete the offer by making a sealed kit lens. Otherwise, this "unique" feature can never be used as a key selling point.

03-28-2008, 08:20 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The issue at hand is an ongoing series of seriously biased and agendized "reviews." Most communities of enthusiasts would feel compelled to address these types of posts, if nothing else to balance what somebody might find through google searches.
then address the issue with your own "reviews"...
03-28-2008, 08:24 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
And in fact I tried to thread back on track
yeah, that was a nice way to get it back on track - reread your own words

QuoteQuote:
RH is an articulate troll. "Anti-fanboy" is another good term. He is measured in his posts and clearly enjoys the attention. But he views this as sport or has serious issues with Pentax. I think it was because he wasn't breast fed but that is my armchair diagnosis.
you know what it is - it is a personal attack
03-28-2008, 08:56 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
yeah, that was a nice way to get it back on track - reread your own words
From above (my words):

I actually am quite interested to handle the K200d and see how the size and weight compare to my K20d. Having a smaller/lighter 2nd dslr that can use the same lenses is an attractive proposition. My hunch is that combining the K200d with the 40mm ltd is a great competitor to the new E420 with 25mm prime. I think the Olympus body is smaller, but the Pentax lens is more compact.

The entry dslr market is really competitive, and the winner is the consumer. I think that the K200d and E420 are the most interesting, mostly due to the shake reduction in the body. That sets it apart from Canikon offerings. The pancake lenses give a very compact package, but one that is a bit "old school." Perhaps that will inspire a new generation of prime shooters though...
__________________

and from my first post in this thread:

The K200d has no peer at the price point wrt weather sealing. If that is important to someone, case closed. No C/N equivalent. Is it weaker in AF performance? Probably. But god knows my D70 hunted plenty.

As for the K20d, I essentially "upgraded" from a K10d and find the price differential to be very worth the money. And I compared directly between the D300, E3 and K20d. I have no previous "fanboy" syndrome with Pentax, and in fact had a Nikon D70 as my previous dslr. Well, I admit to loving Leica but that is another malady...

Pentax has real advantages, and real disadvantages. Just like every other camera/system. What annoys people here is the incredible volume of words that you throw at your "reviews" which *to me* can be boiled down to a pair of words:

"I'm bitter."

To me, in my hands and eyes, spending $1229 for a K20d is providing a much better value and quality as opposed to $1749 for a D300 or $1649 for an E3. No question in my mind. I work around the imperfections of the system and make art that I am happy with. And that now colleagues are happy enough with that we are talking licensing terms for some of my images. And I now have a couple of gallery shows in the works for the summer and fall. The K20d and Pentax lenses enable me to make what I want and need. Obviously I don't need 55 AF points to accomplish that. Neither do most people. But I understand how 55 beats 11 on a spreadsheet. But it doesn't necessarily win in the hands of someone who actually uses the tool to make pictures.
-------

No attacks there other than my opinion that the OP is bitter. As for other comments, they are in response to queries about why he posts and why people respond how they do. I'm attempting to describe a phenomenon. I might be wrong, but it isn't personal. He is who he is. But his words are incredibly biased *to me* based on very little (if any) *real world* use, and hence, should be responded to as such. Or not. This is getting old...trolls end up being really boring after awhile so I'll spend more time on some other forums that don't seem to suffer from "reviews" like this (eg the lens one here).
03-28-2008, 09:07 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I said that the rigidity feel is close to the K20D and K10D, which IMHO is indeed very good for an entry level DSLR. But then I do not like plastic outer shell myself anyway, especially for mid-class DSLR and up.
Then why not state that in the original post? Instead of your very subjective view "... larger and heavier then _I_ would like..." and ".. plasticky outshell must not be something that _I_ really like...". Something like "K10D's body is very well built for a entry level DSLR housing. The body is weather sealed, which is unique in the class. The house itself is quite large, which might be a problem if you have small hands or like to keep your camera in your pocket, but others might think it's nice to have a sturdy and heavy camera."

QuoteQuote:
Yes, I already had the URL embedded in my original blog article.
I don't read your blog and I see no URL here to where it's described for the K200D.

QuoteQuote:
Not agreed with you here. Yes, there is NO Auto ISO Bug in the K200D, and that's what I wished to report. But if new software simply can resolve old bugs, why Pentax just NOT doing a "favour" for their older customer by releasing de-bugged firmwares for all those older Pentax DSLRs sold over nearly the past five years??
I, as a reader, don't care. I simply don't care if its fixed on older cameras or not. Just as if I read about a new car, I don't care if they fix stuff on a car thats 5 years old. I want information about the camera I am reading about. The part about other cameras just make me think that you want to shittalk Pentax rather then talk about the camera that you are holding. And that impression makes me suspicious to everything else you write in the post.

QuoteQuote:
I think I am not making a review, but just a sum-up on my first hands-on impressions on the K200D. If I did a formal testing review, there must be some measurbations! ;-) .. as the last time I measurbated my K100D!
Yes, you are writing about the K200D and say "Its good that they did not include the live view from K20D since it sucks.". Well every camera in the world is bad, because they did not implement a nuclear facility with it. I have to recharge it's battery. See this point also makes me wonder what the hell I am reading. I once again do not care about the K20D's liveview when reading about K200D. A simple "The LCD is medicore to bad, and does not feature liveview, which other brands have.". There was no reason to continue the babbeling about K20D at all. You already had made the point that it was not good.

QuoteQuote:
The AA batteries solution have not been working very well on Pentax DSLRs for *many* users, until the invention of the Sanyo Eneloop which resolve the problem mostly. Not sure about if the K200D suffers from the same problem, though, as it's still too early to tell until if there are new users to start the "adverse" reports.
Yes, for me aswell it's a pain in the arse. But I don't travel alot and when I do, there is always power nearby to charge my batteries. But if I went out for a week into the wilderness, it would be great to be able to bring AA's. So it's different for different people. Personally I'd like to see a battery grip that can take ordinary batteries so that I could choose what to use. But I did not design the camera and this is how it is. Good or bad? Subjective, good for some, bad for some.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to flame you and I have no history with your posts or whatever, some seem to do, but I am not one of them. I am just criticising your way of making your points. If I were to chose a camera today and stumbled on your post here, I would not take it seriously, because you choose to make your points in a way that makes it hard for me to relate to. I am sure you have valid intensions for your reviews and posts, but if you want to come out as a source of quality information, you have to practice your writing skills.
03-28-2008, 02:21 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
And indeed, I treasure my Pentax lenses far more than my Pentax DSLR bodies (which will be replaced very soon anyway). So, I will never put my non-weather sealed older Pentax glass under rainy or whatsoever environments wherever there is more chance to get them damaged.
But to me, Michael, one who travels, who hikes out doors, who will take white water river trips, ride a bike in dusty, wet or muddy conditions......weather sealing is a much appreciated feature.

So "I think" it is a great feature, (and in fact see the lens sealing as a secondary issue)...and will continue to argue the affirmitive.

Cheers
Grant
03-28-2008, 03:13 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by GWP Quote
But to me, Michael, one who travels, who hikes out doors, who will take white water river trips, ride a bike in dusty, wet or muddy conditions......weather sealing is a much appreciated feature.

So "I think" it is a great feature, (and in fact see the lens sealing as a secondary issue)...and will continue to argue the affirmitive.

Cheers
Grant
Grant - I agree with you on the weathersealing. Even if it's with my non-weathersealed lenses,
a) it's still better than nothing, and
b) I can sit a lens in front of the fan to dry out what little water got on it - and it doesn't have much electronics to worry about. The body, on the other hand, is a different story, and I'm glad to have a little piece of mind that a big melted snowflake doesn't melt and drip down inside the shutter button (or the RAW button, or whatever else) and short something there.
03-28-2008, 03:33 PM   #60
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Talk to an electrical engineer about the relative effects of moisture on a dslr body vs. lens.

To equate the importance of the two is disingenuous.
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