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01-16-2007, 08:55 PM   #16
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I once sold several images taken with a pinhole camera-the box from a recent pair of atheletic shoes; bought a few groceries with the profit. Considering that a few groceries constitutes the essentials of life, I guess Nike makes a pretty good 'Pro' line of cameras.

01-16-2007, 10:03 PM   #17
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I think it comes down to a camera that you can buy high end service for - the guys who need a replacement *now* if something goes wrong or they are out of a job. That kind of camera is "pro".

But I also agree with those above - "pro" is the photog, not the camera...
01-16-2007, 10:43 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by slipchuck Quote
I read some reviews of different cameras and checked out the specs etc.
Besides the price, what make a camera a "pro" camera?
I do know that some of the pro cameras have faster frame rates per second.... but beyond this, what is the real differences?
At one time I used to think weather resistance was one of them, but the K10 broke that mold.
I thought bigger sensor.... but Nikon doesn't have full frame sensors.
Mega pixels.... well we all know the story that more doesn't mean better.

any thoughts?

could be room for a good debate here...

cheers

randy
IMO, a pro camera must belong to a pro system which has wide choice of lens and accessories, with good performance and reliability *plus* good field support as well as good servicing support (prompt and helpful to get thing rectified).

Lacking any of the above cannot be considered as a true pro system. Specs alone don't mean anything.

Also, pro system is nothing related to the photographer as it is about the tools, not the photographer, whom is irrelevant as far as the tools or system itself is concerned.
01-16-2007, 10:44 PM   #19
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I will very likely repeat what has been already said. I'll try to make my points short and sweet.

Let me start with this:

1. A person buying a professional D-SLR does not make that person a professional.

2. A professional photographer is a person who is being paid by clients to PRODUCE shots that the clients want. Failure to do so will affect the professional's compensation, reputation and lifestyle.

Knowing this fact, I define a Professional D-SLR as a camera (often top-end or near the top) that a company has outfitted with certain features and has marketed that camera to be sold to a "professional". Professional gear would constitute that same marketing and unique feature sets being applied to D-SLR bodies, lenses and other accessories.

Consumer or Prosumer gear is for regular everyday people, hobbyists or semi-professionals (I define as people who get paid, but admit to their clients that they aren't as good as a professional - the client pays a semi-pro accordingly often lunch, sometimes dinner, sometimes at most $100 - $150 depending on how big the job is - lol).

The features available in professional gear. This may or may not include:
- More controls being immediately available on the body. This allows a pro to make adjustments quickly so they cannot miss action.
- Faster fps rate to capture action quicker
- More dynamic range - recovers "fried" (overexposed) or underexposed shots. (you'll notice a lot of wedding photogs using Fujifilm S3 Pro because of this).
- Lenses - BIG and HEAVY! more glass = brighter image, less flash photos, quicker capture.
- Lighting - Strobes, battery packs (oh so heavy!) light boxes, reflectors, etc.
- Customer support - need a lens right away, broke your body? You a consumer? Try getting your camera repaired within 24 hours!
- Reliability - have you seen the shutter counts in some of those pro Nikons? They go well beyond what is stated as time of failure.


ALL of the features available in professional gear allow a professional to produce pictures with similar quality to consumer gear but at a faster rate.

HUH?!? You ask? Yes, we can produce photos just as good with decent consumer grade stuff but we might take a lot longer than a pro to take that photo if the pro knows his equipment well (very likely because the pro has taken thousands of shots already).

That's my two-cents.

01-17-2007, 09:15 AM   #20
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News Flash!!! Extra, Extra, Read All Abo....

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
IMO, a pro camera must belong to a pro system which has wide choice of lens and accessories, with good performance and reliability *plus* good field support as well as good servicing support (prompt and helpful to get thing rectified).

Lacking any of the above cannot be considered as a true pro system. Specs alone don't mean anything.
Well, well, well--proof positive indeed: Nike Shoes MAKES, DISTRIBUTES AND SERVICES A FULL LINE OF 'pro cameras'!

Hey man, that's outstanding!

Pin-holers know that PH-Cams depend on box size for focal length---Nike shoes come in a nearly infinite range of sizes from infant to Basketball Player--->infinite range of lens focal lengths.

Service is as simple as finding the nearest outlet; there must be what? About twenty-two bazillion all over the worLd?!?!?!!!! And Hey, the box comes with all the accessories you'll ever need: sturdy shoes to ZOOM from location to location.

Actually service time for repairs is immediate-Pin-Holers DIY!

Finally, don't worry "It so simple a pro-photographer can do it!" and here is the proof (quoting again from our un-named but highly-trusted source): "pro system is nothing related to the photographer as it is about the tools, not the photographer, whom is irrelevant"
01-17-2007, 09:50 AM   #21
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I think we should at this point all stipulate that the photographer is more important than the camera. We all feel a need to say this, I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's because it allows me to continue fantasizing that I may one day shoot a cover for National Geographic with my K100D. Or perhaps it's because there's some truth to the thought.

But the photographer > camera idea can also be wildly misinterpreted or misused. The real truth is a bit more complicated.

1. If two people go out to shoot using the same equipment - whether it's a Nike shoebox with a pin-hole or a Pentax K10D - the person who is the better photographer is likely to take the better picture.

2. If you're a lousy photographer, spending $5000 on equipment isn't in itself going to make you better. And if you're a good photographer with a good eye, there's a good chance you can take an interesting photo (if not a technically "good" one) even on a cell-phone or PDA camera.

Personally, I think the points above should go without saying. What gave this thread some initial interest, however, was another point, namely:

3. Skilled craftsman usually want to have the best tools they can afford, and it seems safe to say that not too many professional photographers are using Pentax K110Ds. Not a knock against the K110D or Pentax. Not a knock against anybody who happens to be a Pro and DOES use such a camera. The interesting point here isn't the exceptions - about which we all feel a need to be so polite - but the rules. And the rule seems pretty clearly to be: pro photographers are buying "pro" cameras that cost a lot more than $600.

Which led to the question, what are the pros (or well-heeled amateurs) getting when they spend thousands that I don't have? I thought it was an
interesting question and I'm grateful that we've gotten at least a few concrete answers here.

Will
01-17-2007, 10:31 AM   #22
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Hey, you're throwing water on my fire there Will; compelling need to diffuse the situation, huh?!?

We all get it-even Slipchuck; he didn't need to post the question, he knows the answer. But he is a conversationalist and it fills his need in that respect.

So you want concrete discussion, we could talk about my new porch and the fact that it's too cold to pour the concrete pad so I pay for rescheduling---just a joke, don't fume.


What makes a pro camera?

Marketing: The true difference in materials cost and labor is shockingly small. But the slick look and the minor improvements and the built-in service contract costs add a bit, so what the hey.

Marketing: Stroke the ego loosen, the purse-strings.

Marketing: shift large cost to a small, slightly improved unit, jack the price, give it away, use loss to shield profit from thousands of lessor units from taxes.

Marketing: get good 'product placement' or 'exclusivity' and spin the profit wheel on those little units faster and faster; because everybody knows "you just gotta have (insert favorite unit brand here) to be any good at (whatever unit does).
01-17-2007, 10:53 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Hey, you're throwing water on my fire there Will; compelling need to diffuse the situation, huh?!?

We all get it-even Slipchuck; he didn't need to post the question, he knows the answer. But he is a conversationalist and it fills his need in that respect.
I don't get it. I've wondered the same thing myself. Didn't wonder very strenuously, as I simply can't afford even to window shop for $2000+ camera bodies. Still, I thought it was a fair and interesting question.


QuoteQuote:
What makes a pro camera?

Marketing: The true difference in materials cost and labor is shockingly small. But the slick look and the minor improvements and the built-in service contract costs add a bit, so what the hey.

Marketing: Stroke the ego loosen, the purse-strings.

Marketing: shift large cost to a small, slightly improved unit, jack the price, give it away, use loss to shield profit from thousands of lessor units from taxes.

Marketing: get good 'product placement' or 'exclusivity' and spin the profit wheel on those little units faster and faster; because everybody knows "you just gotta have (insert favorite unit brand here) to be any good at (whatever unit does).
I just don't believe that this is all there is to it. It's kind of an insult to professional photographers. Sounds like you think they are all chumps or dummies. I doubt that's the case. And if there were savvy and budget-conscious pros using low-end digital SLRs for their work, well, I think we'd here about THAT in the marketing.

Some differences have been suggested here and they sound reasonable and valuable. I for one would not mind having a weather-sealed body; the ability to save in-camera to DNG as well as PEF; a bigger cache for more fps when shooting in continuous mode; faster/better auto-focusing. There are other things that I don't personally care about but which I can understand might be very valuable to certain high-end users, like really durable bodies backed up with super-duper service and support; more buttons on the body of the camera; support for external battery packs; GPS and other bells and whistles.

I acknowledged in my first post that the profit margin is higher for the more expensive cameras. A camera costing 4 times what I paid for my K100D is almost surely not going to take pictures that are four times "better" (if, for the sake of argument, you can imagine quantitying "photographic goodness" in some way). But that does not mean that someone who has the money to spend and pays that extra price for a few more features is a chump.

I'm not embarrassed to have one of the least expensive DSLRs on the market. I envy the folks here who have the K10D, but in a healthy way. Good for them. I would like to have some of that camera's features, but on the other hand, I got a really good deal on my K100D, so I'm satisfied.

Will

01-17-2007, 11:16 AM   #24
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I still think it is interesting that marketing really does influence us. The Samsung GX-10 is being marketed as a "Professional" DSLR. Yet for some reason we Pentax users seem to think that we are not pro worthy or that we need to make excuses for Pentax. I shot professionally with my *istD. I did several weddings with it, many portraits, several models (including a calendar and a Playboy model). I plan to be just as industrious with my K10D. It is true that anybody wants to have the best they can have, pros or not, but that doesn't have to mean the most expensive out there. Pentax equipment has always been sufficient for my needs. And the lenses are actually better, which is the most important part.
01-17-2007, 11:47 AM   #25
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Don't buy marketing? Let's try a different angle. How many pro's do you really and truely KNOW?

I got a pair of 10Ds-they got weather sealing. Big deal, I live in Albuquerque, NM, the weather here has two settings: Hot and Blow. Hot is good if you avoid it; blow and it ain't worth shooting. And I still carry a weather cover for the camera in my bag!

Rapid fire; hrummp. I've shot sports for 30 years; down on the sidelines, under the basket, near the net, running with sharp sticks (monopod) in my hand. Rapid fire is for chumps; it don't matter how fast. The shot you want will happen between frames! Google it your self: find the Sports Illustrated articles from a few years past. Skip the workflow article, it drying paint boring. Find the one about the Mags cover shot. A million images, 99% reviewed before they found that special image, that once in a lifetime shot--the cover. Old guy, Old camera, single shot, manual everything. Pure talent.

Still mulling that how many Pro's question? Good.

As a Pentax owner you have already accepted that equipment cannot embarrass you. Tripping over your own feet, forgetting to comb your hair, wearing strips and plaids, pink underwear, leaving your fly open---these things cause embarrassment! Will, that's the keystone to a Pro's attitude too!

Ok, I know a bunch of pro's, here goes:

Kevin and most of his crew (3 girls in spandex and chains) doing weddings D100, D200, D200-shared lenses.
McBill, an old Hassy and a second hand D200 doing room filling situational portraiture-nothing smaller than 20 by 30inches.
Kim, Hassy digital and dumptruck load of G5 Macs, walk-in portraiture and stringing several guns for hire for event work running n0Ds (6mp's and 8s) and sharing fast zooms and long tubes.
Dave, an old D2H, freelance anything, scenics; lots of beat-up primes.
Nancy and Kyle and Kim various xODs-10,20-30, publicity headshots, glamore and fashion, weddings, dogs and kids, advertisements---have camera will travel girls.
Dave #2 a pair of ist-Ds and 35 years of accumulated glass, architechture and historic stills-skulls, bones, tumbleweed, wagon wheels---goofy but alluring.
JB, Canon from the beginning thru 8MP shooting college sports.
Javier---here it is a brandfrikking new State o'the art Nikon (d2x2 or whatever), but he doesn't shoot much of anything---too busy chimping the menus still. And I got and sent him the proof! Boy is he hot.
Keri, a second hand D100, stringing dogs and kids part time for rent while pursuing a degree----This ones a real hoot and probably the best pure talent I know first hand--she did shoot a Minolta film body until about two years ago.

I got more, but I bet you're bored. Did you see a trend?

It's middle of the road man. Good kit but more talent than bucks. The only exception is those with special angles and those sharing exotic glass; Javier has access to a 2000mm tele owned by the university art department and he's a post doc fellow.

Will, don't waste time with envy or wishing unless you're really bored. I try to live and shoot by this: learn what you got, shoot what you got, let your vision loose. Cameras are just very expensive boxes.
01-17-2007, 12:00 PM   #26
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"Warning: Shock hazard! Do not open; no user serviceable parts inside."

I just wanted to say, John, that this sig. is much more in keeping with your persona. And it gave me a good laugh.

Julie
01-17-2007, 01:38 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Rapid fire; hrummp. I've shot sports for 30 years; down on the sidelines, under the basket, near the net, running with sharp sticks (monopod) in my hand. Rapid fire is for chumps; it don't matter how fast. The shot you want will happen between frames!
Great post. I was thinking of doing something similar, but it wouldn't have been half as entertaining.

If you shoot at 20fps with a 1/1000s shutter speed you are only recording 1/50th of the action. It's far better to pick the right moment with your finger! It's a knack and a skill, and that's how you get recognition.

You could deal with each of the assumptions in this way one by one. A lot of people have been assuming a very narrow range of "professionals" (sports, war photography, etc.) - where are the landscapers, the product shooters, the macroers, etc. - they each have their own requirements, many of which can be satisfied by any camera with an appropriate recording method.

That's where the real problem lies with digital. When you buy a camera these days you are also buying all the film you will ever use with it. There's no going off for some fine slide film or super-fast black and white - it's got to be there in the sensor (you can't bump up the resolution for that once-in-a-lifetime shot).

With film, anyone with a decent lens (even on a compact) could do the business in the right circumstances - ignoring the requirement in some spheres for medium or large format. Now you have to watch out for resolution requirements, purple fringing, the moiré patterns...

In the end, as has been said, a professional will use a camera that suits his requirements and his style. The camera manufacturers on the other hand will market as professional any camera they need buyers to pay a premium for. That doesn't mean only professionals will buy it; there will also be amateurs who can benefit from it and can afford it, and those who can afford it but won't know (or care) how to get it out of point-and-shoot mode! As the man said... marketing.

Simon
01-17-2007, 04:29 PM   #28
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I got a camera to have fun.

I joined PentaxForums because it looked like it might be fun.

So, lets have some fun!



Live today, shoot today; tomorrow some government goof might show up and ruin the fun.
01-17-2007, 04:41 PM   #29
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You know, we all gathered at the end of the counter in the good ol 'days. We fondled the new stuff, bought film, batteries and chemistry. We laughed about getting gassed in the war protest, we cussed and cursed politicians-still laugh about some prez faling down, we hated kodak when they changed Tri-X, did more cussing when they formulated TMax films and killed bromide papers for good. We threw everbodies 'just back from the lab prints' into a big box then drew them out one at a time and tried to guess who shot what.

Now we have buttons and keyboards and the internet forums. And except for my daughter the rest of you are all just voices in the dark.

Well, it's all in what you make it. So if I get caught-up in another measurebater thread just kill me!
01-17-2007, 07:36 PM   #30
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thank you all so far for your input.

You are right, jfdavis58, I already knew the answer to my question (for the most part) before I asked it. But the point is, I asked because I know that getting other people's answers will not only improve mine, but give me food for thought.

What I do like is:
I love and respect different points of view, even if it isn't my own. This is what makes the world turn IMHO

I learn a little bit more about someone by HOW they post their answer, not only information they post. (a wee bit at a time) for example how they defend their answer.

I like a good, clean debate.... to me, there usually isn't usually A right answer, but a sea of information that we gather to make an informed descision. Lord knows I am not always right.... But I like adding my point of view to that vast sea of knowledge, even if no one listens

I learned a lot from this and every post I read.....

thank you to all who answered so far!!

cheers
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