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03-26-2008, 11:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Hi Steve,

Thank you for the comparation but I guess a third row is needed with K10D and a better lens (maybe a FA43 Ltd, DA 16-45 or a DA* 16-50 to stay in zoom teritory). Then we can draw some conclusion about the quality differences between p&s and dslr.

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Radu
I dont think it would make a huge difference. Firstly, the 16-45 is not much sharper than the 24-90, and secondly there is already moire in some of the fine detail in the K10D shot which shows that the lens is actually outresolving the sensor anyway.

Yes I could use a prime lens, but then I should compare it with a Ricoh GRD2 not a humble $130 digicam.

Secondly I doubt I could repeat the weather and lighting conditions so there would be too many other variables.

I will wait a bit longer and see how many people guess correctly. One so far!!!

03-26-2008, 11:50 AM   #17
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P&S = A D E H

To be honest, it did take me a while to come up with that. However, I can see that the P&S does render harsher shadow/less contrast -> resulting in less details, which is why most people think that G is from the K10D. Thus, if i'm right, it's true that for the same MP, the P&S would perform quite similar to the K10D at well-lit areas, while it would not be able to do the same in rendering dark areas (pretty consistent with the poor performance of a P&S in low light).
03-26-2008, 02:31 PM   #18
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Good work, thanks a lot.

It makes perfect sense, though Iím surprised that the small sensor could keep up so well in the crop samples.

So I see that the user Mermozjg was right in the earlier thread, (though he does not mention DR) :
ďexcellent IQ at low ISO is possible with a tiny sensor. FF will not give you better IQ quality at low ISO than APS-C, only 1 stop better noise profile and swallower DOF. "quod erat demonstrandum" Ē


The FA 24-90/3.5-4.5 AL [IF] was not a poor lens, and for it to be a right comparison, somewhat similar lenses needed to be used. (I donít really see the problem regarding lens discussion, Steve already said that at the borders the P&S was not good).


Fine points by FotoPete regarding the images.
Obviously, I might as well get me a disposable, my fancy talk knowledge is no match for real life tests

Iíll try to have a shot at it anyway :
K10 : C, G (most confident about these)
E (I'm gonna go with E on this one, though first look I thought differently; very hard to tell. Looks like there was sun in one shot, and not in the other)
B (Iím inclined to go with B on this one, for the K10)

(My screen is not calibrated, and just a smaller one on a several year old laptop; donít have all the fancy gear that the rest of you people always talk about).

So these will be my answers for the K10 DSLR :
B C E G (Iíll stop now, as my eyes are starting to hurt. Those pixels can be dangerous )

How do we know people wonít edit their replies ;-?
03-26-2008, 03:20 PM   #19
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I'll try even though I'm probably wrong...
I think B D E H are from the K10.

03-26-2008, 03:26 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
A30: A, D, F, H
Agreed; even at piddly screen resolution, you can see the difference. Examining large prints made from each would make the differences more obvious.

Last edited by 24X36NOW; 03-26-2008 at 03:32 PM.
03-26-2008, 03:35 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
So I see that the user Mermozjg was right in the earlier thread, (though he does not mention DR) :
ďexcellent IQ at low ISO is possible with a tiny sensor. FF will not give you better IQ quality at low ISO than APS-C, only 1 stop better noise profile and swallower DOF. "quod erat demonstrandum" Ē
Two comments: First, I'm interested in better IQ at all ISOs, not just "low" ISOs; second, a better noise profile (even if that were the only difference) is better IQ.
03-26-2008, 07:02 PM   #22
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My guess

B,C,F,G = K10D

Still makes you look long and hard for the differences though.

Cheers

Del
03-26-2008, 07:09 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
It makes perfect sense, though Iím surprised that the small sensor could keep up so well in the crop samples.
Steve's test actually responded to a claim done by a magazine that the Pentax Optio A30 differs from its entire competition in that its low iso IQ can only be rivaled by a good DSLR with good glass. Therefore, the results may not be representative for other P&S!

Also, I will be happy to help and see both full scale images once the competition is closed. Could be interesting to print'em out.


QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
How do we know people wonít edit their replies ;-?
Google cache?

03-26-2008, 07:13 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by VHDEL Quote
Still makes you look long and hard for the differences though.
So, why didn't you use your avatar name as your response?
03-26-2008, 07:20 PM   #25
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To me A,D,E and H are better looking. BCFG have terrible color abberation and more processing. But this has nothing to do with the sensor - can be either camera.
At 10MP usually the resolution limiting factor is the lens.

Diffraction is important to take into consideration when comparing sensor sizes. Diffraction affects resolution.
The smaller the sensor, the sooner diffraction occurs with small apertures. For example, the 1/1.8 sensor of the A30 becomes diffraction limited at F5.6, the APS sensor hits diffraction at F18 (the exact numbers may differ depending on how you define the circle of confusion).
On the other hand, one doesn't need very small aperture with a P&S, because the small sensor lens is very wide angle (fisheye) with a huge depth of field even at f5.6.

With the latest generation of cameras, the only real benefit of a big sensor is the noise at high ISO and the ability to use lenses with shallow DOF.
03-26-2008, 08:02 PM   #26
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BCFG is the aps sensor - B looked like it had less noise, especially in the lower left area. C looks like there is more detail and less noise as well. E/F is a little more difficult to tell because of shade/sunlight. but i'm going to say F because there is somewhat more detail in the shingles. G seems consistent with F, but it looks like there is more detail there than H.

Therefore: BCFG is the aps sensor.
03-26-2008, 08:05 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Steve's test actually responded to a claim done by a magazine that the Pentax Optio A30 differs from its entire competition in that its low iso IQ can only be rivaled by a good DSLR with good glass. Therefore, the results may not be representative for other P&S!
Exactly what I thought, as soon as I saw mention of the large, for a PnS, sensor. The vast majority of PnS sensors are 1/2.5", which is much smaller - an area of about 24.71mm vs 38.17mm on a 1/1.8" sensor. That's a pretty big difference.

And ISO 100... heck, my last two DSLRs couldn't even do ISO 100.
03-27-2008, 09:08 AM   #28
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And the answer is...

BCFG are from the K10D (congratulations to Geekybiker, Nostatic, Aegisphan and VHDEL).

The real giveaway is the lack of processing in shadow areas specifically. You can clearly see roof tiles and other details in the K10D shots which are noise processed into flat areas with no detail by the A30 (look also ar the side of the car). The A30 also has less DR altogether as well.

What is interesting is that the A30 only does NR in shadow areas at low ISO, keeping detail in the bright areas very high (hence it does well in tests I assume). It certainly resolved more than any of the other small cams I tried and only my GX100 comes close. Its good enough for A3 prints.

However the A30 shots are so heavily processed in camera that there is no room for further processing. The GX100 is much better here though much more noisy in the shadows and requires selective NR.

Whats surprising about the K10D is the amount of colour moire in some of the smaller areas of fine detail and the fact that it does not really resolve more detail, at least using PPL. If you take a RAW image and process in Silkypix or ACR is looks sharper but noiser, but of course you cant do that on an A30. I used PPL on purpose because it replicates the JPEG parameters on the K10D almost exactly.

Even so I think its fairly conclusive that 10MP is still 10MP, and if you have a comparable lens the resolution will be similar regardless of format, but optics and cost is the major limitation in both cases.

And of course you will get better dynamic range and less noise out of a sensor with photosites 9X the size, though perhaps not as much as people might expect. For instance you dont get 9X less noise or 9X as much DR.

Still, hope you all enjoyed pixel peeping and I hope its provided some food for thought about sensor size discussions.

I will post the full size JPEGs. I think you will see some obvious faults with the A30, but also with the K10D as well although most of these are well below the visible threshold on prints as large as A2 or larger so its really not an issue in the real world.
03-27-2008, 09:56 AM   #29
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is my prize in the mail?

I might have an unfair advantage as I've done a lot of direct comparisons between my Leica LDux3 (Panasonic LX2) and K10d (brief ownership) and K20d (current ownership). But I confess that the CA on the lens of the DSLR gave away the identity of which were from the same camera. After that is was the mottling that is characteristic of the way that noise reduction usually deals with the small pixels on a small sensor camera. I actually like the look of a small sensor shot *if* you shoot raw and don't rely on the camera's onboard NR. Depending on the camera, you can get wonderful "grain" from the noise at higher ISO.
03-27-2008, 10:37 AM   #30
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I'll take a crack. B,C,E and G are the K10. My reasoning? While overall resolution is much closer than I would have thought, there is a fine detail issue and a jpeg artifact issue. At least there appears to be.

A vs B - Here I could only go by artifacts. B was less blocky, which I would expect from using PPL.

C vs D - This one was all about fine details. In C I could see different tonal values in the strip on the side of the car. In D it was just a solid color.

E vs F goes back to jpeg artifacts. While both looked good, I could almost read the lettering on the truck (lorry) in E.

G vs H - I just went off the detail in the bricks of the chimney and the shingles of the building in front of it.

What is amazing is that they are close enough to have to go off of such finite details and that opinions on which is better vary so much. What does this say about the debate between APS-C and FF?
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