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03-26-2008, 04:04 PM   #1
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K10D Hyperprogram question

I've been trying to figure this one out for a while to no avail.
The set-up: auto ISO from 100 to 800, mode dial in "P", Program line "Hi Speed", Tamron 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 lens

Initial values indoors pointing at white wall: 1/30 sec, F3.5, ISO 800
So I rotate the front dial to pick a slower shutter speed, now 1/25 sec, F3.5, ISO 640.
Makes sense but why is the bar under the shutter speed flashing?
Go to 1/20 sec, F3.5, ISO 500, bar still flashing. Not the shutter speed, just the bar.
I know what flashing numbers mean but not flashing bar.

Furthermore if I try to rotate the dial to increase the shutter speed back to 1/25 it will not let me. Why, why, why?

If I hit the green button I'm back to the starting point. Can anyone explain?

Note: The flashing bar does not happen when rotating the rear aperature dial in hyper-program and also allows me to go up and back down in aperature.

03-26-2008, 05:30 PM   #2
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hmmm

i just did an experiment with this and it restricted me from going back up to a higher shutterspeed too...

no idea

bump
03-26-2008, 05:54 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Workingdog Quote
Go to 1/20 sec, F3.5, ISO 500, bar still flashing. Not the shutter speed, just the bar. I know what flashing numbers mean but not flashing bar.

Furthermore if I try to rotate the dial to increase the shutter speed back to 1/25 it will not let me. Why, why, why?
Hyperprogram on the K10D/K20D basically will not "agree" to an exposure setting that isn't "right." Now, it will give you such a setting initially if you ask it. When you hit the green button, there seems to be some minimum shutter speed that the camera uses regardless of whether that minimum setting works or not. So you can take the camera into a dark room and hit the green button and the camera will give you an exposure, using the highest ISO available (if you're set to auto-ISO) + the widest aperture available for the lens + some minimum (i.e. slowest) shutter speed, but it won't apparently ever give you a shutter speed of, say, 3 seconds, even if that would be the right speed.

Now, if the settings suggested when you hit the green button aren't going to produce a properly exposed picture, according to the camera's calculations, then you'll also see the flash symbol flashing. This is underneath the aperture value. I don't know what you mean by some "bar" flashing. I don't see any flashing bars on my K10D. The flash symbol blinks on and off to, um, suggest that you pop-up the flash and use it.

Finally, if the initial suggestion re exposure with a shutter speed of say 1/30th sec is still underexposed, then when you slow down the shutter by turning it to 1/20th sec, you can't get back because, as I said earlier, the camera won't let you dial in a bad exposure. In other words, moving from 1/30th sec to 1/20th sec is a step in the right direction and the camera won't let you step back, since that would make the exposure WORSE, not better.

I am increasingly fond of P mode on the K10D/K20D and have started using it a fair bit. I am using it only because it's hyperprogram--that is, because it's such a wonderfully smart feature and because I still feel as if I'm in control. However, it works best when light is good and even; and it doesn't work very well when it's not. I just came back from a vacation in the mountains of southwest Texas (Big Bend National Park). I had to deal with a number of challenging exposures--bright skies, dark mountains in the distance, and middle-zone desert landscapes in the foreground. I often switched from P to M because doing so was easier than getting the right exposure using Ev adjustments.

Will
03-26-2008, 05:57 PM   #4
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QuoteQuote:
Finally, if the initial suggestion re exposure with a shutter speed of say 1/30th sec is still underexposed, then when you slow down theshutter but turning it to 1/20th sec, you can't get back because, as I said earlier, the camera won't let you dial in a bad exposure. In other words, moving from 1/30th sec to 1/20th sec is a step in the right direction and the camera won't let you step back, since that would make the exposure WORSE, not better.
ok ok, got it.

03-26-2008, 06:35 PM   #5
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Will,

The flashing bar I'm talking about is the thin line that appears under the shutter speed when you're in hyperprogram-shutter priority, you know, the shutter speed is underlined to let you know you're adjusting it. Mine flashes. ????

Also, if I switch to Tv mode the camera says I have a good exposure at 1/30 sec, F3.5, ISO 800, no flash symbol blinking, so I think the green button exposure is accurate. After all, what's the point of the metering system if it doesn't work ?

Now back to hyperprogram, if I keep lowering the shutter speed I eventually reach a point where I'm at ISO 100, F3.5 (oh yeah, at this point the underline/bar stops flashing). Again, the camera will not allow me to increase the shutter speed with the front dial, ie. it will not increase the ISO to say 200 or 400 and give me a higher shutter speed.

Give this a try and you'll see what I mean. By the way I have not updated the firmware.
03-26-2008, 09:59 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Workingdog Quote
The flashing bar I'm talking about is the thin line that appears under the shutter speed when you're in hyperprogram-shutter priority, you know, the shutter speed is underlined to let you know you're adjusting it. Mine flashes. ????
Hmm. Either your camera works differently from mine, or I'm missing something. I'll apologize in advance, since I seem to miss a lot. But on my K10D and also on my K20D, when I am in P mode, and I move the shutter-speed e-dial (putting the camera into shutter-priority in hyperprogram), I don't get a thin line under the shutter speed. Rather, I get a little arrow pointer--like ">" but solid--to the left of the shutter speed. If I move the aperture (rear) e-dial, the arrow pointer moves down to point at the aperture setting instead. See the enclosed photo of my K10D in P mode.


QuoteQuote:
Give this a try and you'll see what I mean. By the way I have not updated the firmware.
Well, I don't remember what the camera used to do. I'm using the latest firmware on my K10D. Perhaps there's been a change in the later versions?

Or can somebody explain to me what I'm missing?

Will
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03-27-2008, 03:48 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Workingdog Quote
Will,

The flashing bar I'm talking about is the thin line that appears under the shutter speed when you're in hyperprogram-shutter priority, you know, the shutter speed is underlined to let you know you're adjusting it. Mine flashes. ????

Also, if I switch to Tv mode the camera says I have a good exposure at 1/30 sec, F3.5, ISO 800, no flash symbol blinking, so I think the green button exposure is accurate. After all, what's the point of the metering system if it doesn't work ?

Now back to hyperprogram, if I keep lowering the shutter speed I eventually reach a point where I'm at ISO 100, F3.5 (oh yeah, at this point the underline/bar stops flashing). Again, the camera will not allow me to increase the shutter speed with the front dial, ie. it will not increase the ISO to say 200 or 400 and give me a higher shutter speed.

Give this a try and you'll see what I mean. By the way I have not updated the firmware.
Workingdog, the manual (p. 26, 147-148) explains that shutter speed and aperture values in hyper-program (P) are set in relationship to each other; the line appears when adjusting one in relation to the recommended setting of the other value. Add in the auto ISO shifting, and I think that what is happening may be that the camera is juggling two changing variables against a fixed value for the third variable. That can get a little complicated, and it's possible that your camera's computer is struggling to make any given combination yield a workable exposure.

I haven't seen the bar flash under either my K10D's hyper-program-adjusted speed or aperture variables, but interpret what you're seeing as the camera saying that it can't make an exposure combination out of your hyper-program settings that would be equivalent to its "P" program line recommendation. You could be seeing this behavior for several reasons: choice of high-speed program line, use of smaller maximum aperture telezoom, and use of auto ISO, especially in combination. I'd recommend approaching this problem by simplifying the range of variables, and then experimenting to learn the camera's algorithmic approach to handling these variables. Try starting with normal program line and a fixed ISO, for example.

Let us know what you find out so we can all learn from your experience!
03-27-2008, 05:16 AM   #8
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Will, sorry I didn't specify that in the viewfinder it's the underline/bar and in the top LCD its the little arrow/pointer as seen in your photo. No matter, my little pointer flashes too!

Christine, your recommended approach is , of course, solid. Less variables to isolate the behavior. I was hoping that someone else has already been through this exercise so I wouldn't have to. And let's not forget about my original firmware version. Could be something undocumented that was quietly fixed in later versions.

03-27-2008, 06:51 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Workingdog Quote
Will,

The flashing bar I'm talking about is the thin line that appears under the shutter speed when you're in hyperprogram-shutter priority, you know, the shutter speed is underlined to let you know you're adjusting it. Mine flashes. ????

Also, if I switch to Tv mode the camera says I have a good exposure at 1/30 sec, F3.5, ISO 800, no flash symbol blinking, so I think the green button exposure is accurate. After all, what's the point of the metering system if it doesn't work ?

Now back to hyperprogram, if I keep lowering the shutter speed I eventually reach a point where I'm at ISO 100, F3.5 (oh yeah, at this point the underline/bar stops flashing). Again, the camera will not allow me to increase the shutter speed with the front dial, ie. it will not increase the ISO to say 200 or 400 and give me a higher shutter speed.

Give this a try and you'll see what I mean. By the way I have not updated the firmware.

I HAVE had the line flashing too, so you are not alone... but I have no idea why either.... I have no idea what firmware I have. had my camer for only 10 days!
03-27-2008, 07:39 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by madisonphotogrl Quote
I HAVE had the line flashing too, so you are not alone... but I have no idea why either.... I have no idea what firmware I have. had my camer for only 10 days!
If your camera is fresh out of the box, you're on v1.0. (press menu button then turn on the camera while pressing menu button, should show firmware version). You can get v1.3 (most recent and likely the last) here. Be sure to follow the instructions precisely and also have completely charged battery installed.
03-27-2008, 06:33 PM   #11
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There is firmware v1.10 which to me is a major upgrade. I do not need the minor changes in v1.30.

Hence the firmware of my k10D has been upgraded to v1.10 only. With this, I can still call up the Debug Mode to fix any Front Focussing or Back Focussing problem later.
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