Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-01-2008, 01:19 PM   #1
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Am I Stupid?

Hey All,
I've only had my k100d I got off Ebay last week and already I want to upgrade to perhaps the k200d. The k100d is great but what I want to know is...from my experiences,higher MP cameras also deliver more noise. The k100d starts at ISO 200 as opposed to 100 with the k200d and ends with 3200 on the k100d as opposed to only 1600 on the k200d, I shoot in all kinds of lighting situations and I also like detail. Increasing the MP count by four sounds appealing but I'm afraid I'll lose out on some very low light situations without a flash. I only paid $525.00 with a bunch of lenses and big camera bag...or, should I resell the "hardly used" body of the k100d and get the k200d? I like the fact both use AA batteries. or should I keep the k100d not know what price I'll get in the end.Anyone have both cams?

Barry

04-01-2008, 01:22 PM   #2
Veteran Member
Gooshin's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto, the one in Canada.
Posts: 5,610
a higher MP camera will deliver more noise than a lower MP camera only if the quality and build construction of those pixels (or for easier understand, the entire sensor) is worse, identical, or marginally better.


in the case of the k100d, you have ancient technology 6mp CCD

the k10d has ancient technology 10mp CCD

the K10D is worse at noise handling than the K100D

the K200D uses the exact same chip as the K10D

ergo, the K200D will not have better noise control than the K100D unless they implemented some fancy noise reduction IN CAMERA, and even then, this is simply a matter of software more than attaining RAW CLEAN DATA

so unless you have the green for a K20D, i would sit back, relax, and use your k100d until it breaks.
04-01-2008, 01:56 PM   #3
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Original Poster
Hey Gooshin

QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
a higher MP camera will deliver more noise than a lower MP camera only if the quality and build construction of those pixels (or for easier understand, the entire sensor) is worse, identical, or marginally better.


in the case of the k100d, you have ancient technology 6mp CCD

the k10d has ancient technology 10mp CCD

the K10D is worse at noise handling than the K100D

the K200D uses the exact same chip as the K10D

ergo, the K200D will not have better noise control than the K100D unless they implemented some fancy noise reduction IN CAMERA, and even then, this is simply a matter of software more than attaining RAW CLEAN DATA

so unless you have the green for a K20D, i would sit back, relax, and use your k100d until it breaks.
LOL, Love your sig. What was your "crime" on Dp Review, Mine was defending myself on a topic that I started, it should have been the hijackers of the topic who should have give the heave ho . I think I will keep the k100d, it does great at 6mp and 200 ISO, better than my s8000fd Fuji did at 64 ISO and 8mp setting.

Barry
04-01-2008, 02:08 PM   #4
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 270
QuoteOriginally posted by shutterpuppy Quote
Hey All,
I've only had my k100d I got off Ebay last week and already I want to upgrade to perhaps the k200d. The k100d is great but what I want to know is...from my experiences,higher MP cameras also deliver more noise. The k100d starts at ISO 200 as opposed to 100 with the k200d and ends with 3200 on the k100d as opposed to only 1600 on the k200d, I shoot in all kinds of lighting situations and I also like detail. Increasing the MP count by four sounds appealing but I'm afraid I'll lose out on some very low light situations without a flash. I only paid $525.00 with a bunch of lenses and big camera bag...or, should I resell the "hardly used" body of the k100d and get the k200d? I like the fact both use AA batteries. or should I keep the k100d not know what price I'll get in the end.Anyone have both cams?

Barry
Why not sell the K100d and upgrade to the K10D for less than the K200D? I like it..

04-01-2008, 02:30 PM   #5
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Original Poster
Madisongirl

QuoteOriginally posted by madisonphotogrl Quote
Why not sell the K100d and upgrade to the K10D for less than the K200D? I like it..
Madison
I would but then I'd be stuck with all those recharagble AAs I have from my previous bridgecams.
04-01-2008, 03:46 PM   #6
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas, Texas
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,482
QuoteOriginally posted by shutterpuppy Quote
I've only had my k100d I got off Ebay last week and already I want to upgrade to perhaps the k200d.
Barry,

You work fast. I kept my K100D for at least four weeks before getting the itch to upgrade to a K10D. ;-)


QuoteQuote:
The k100d is great but what I want to know is...from my experiences, higher MP cameras also deliver more noise.
As Gooshin has already suggested, it's a tad more complicated than that. In theory, more megapixels = more noise, other things being equal. But other things are never equal. Sensor size makes a difference; that's why full-frame cameras like the Nikon D3 and Canon 5D (other things being equal) are less noisy than aps-c sensor cameras like all the Pentax digital SLRs. But even when the sensor size stays the same, more pixels doesn't automatically mean more noise. The K20D, for example, is at least no noisier at ISO N than the K10D, even though the K20D's sensor is much higher res. I don't have a K200D and haven't read much about 'em but my guess is that the noise from the k200D isn't significantly worse (if it's worse at all) than the noise from photos taken by the K100D at the same ISO. It's not even true that a given camera's noise levels are always the same at the same ISO - depends on the photo, the light, other mysteries I don't fully understand. And finally, if you have more pixels to work with in the first place, the noise reduction software has more info to work with and can thus do a better job.


QuoteQuote:
I shoot in all kinds of lighting situations and I also like detail. Increasing the MP count by four sounds appealing but I'm afraid I'll lose out on some very low light situations without a flash. I only paid $525.00 with a bunch of lenses and big camera bag...or, should I resell the "hardly used" body of the k100d and get the k200d? I like the fact both use AA batteries. or should I keep the k100d not know what price I'll get in the end.Anyone have both cams?
I second madisonphotogrl's suggestion that you consider the K10D. I think it's a better camera body than the K200D. Don't be scared off by the frequent claim that the K10D produces very noisy images at higher ISOs. And forget about the battery issue. I too thought that using AAs was a big advantage of the K100D when I bought it initially and I hesitated to switch to the K10D because it uses a proprietary rechargeable battery. I quickly changed my mind about this after getting the K10D.

Will
04-01-2008, 03:57 PM   #7
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: West Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 338
I became aware of K100's limitations shortly after buying it a year and a half ago. But I did not realize how 'limited' until I got my K20 a couple of weeks ago. Still, I will keep and use the K100 - it is a great camera..........

04-01-2008, 04:08 PM   #8
Veteran Member
heatherslightbox's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gainesville, FL
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,599
Barry,
If you keep the K100, you'll have more money for lenses. If you swap it for a K10D, then you won't have as much money for lenses, with the K200, even less money, and with the K20, you'll have it all tied up in it. Seriously, whether you decide to keep the K100 or upgrade to the K10, you won't lose. Granted, they're not the "best" cameras in the Pentax line, but you can focus on building your kit of quality lenses without having all your $$$ tied up in a body.

I do have an idea as to what you could do with some of those rechargable AA batteries left over from your bridgecam. At some point, you're probably going to want to get a shoe-mount flash. I don't know about the other flashes, but my Sunpak 383 takes 4AA batteries.

Heather
04-01-2008, 05:02 PM   #9
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Original Poster
Checking My Resources

I will admit that the k100d has got to be the best 6mp I've ever seen as far as quality of results. It's those 10mps of the k200d that crying out to me..can you say "poster sized prints" John, could you post some night shots done at 3200 ISO and 6mp with the k100d, those shots could make my decision a lot easier.

Thanks
Barry
04-01-2008, 06:10 PM   #10
Veteran Member
rparmar's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,795
QuoteOriginally posted by shutterpuppy Quote
I will admit that the k100d has got to be the best 6mp I've ever seen as far as quality of results. It's those 10mps of the k200d that crying out to me..can you say "poster sized prints" John, could you post some night shots done at 3200 ISO and 6mp with the k100d, those shots could make my decision a lot easier.
Going from 6 to 10MP is not a huge increase... it's marginal. In order "to print an image with twice the area you need to quadruple the pixel count", to quote my own recent article To Say Nothing Of Megapixels. Even upgrading to the K20D will only get you double the size in a single dimension.

If you really want big posters at the same resolution you will need a FF or medium format camera. But most of us don't really need that.
04-01-2008, 06:46 PM   #11
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Original Poster
For Will

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Barry,

You work fast. I kept my K100D for at least four weeks before getting the itch to upgrade to a K10D. ;-)


Will
Hey Will,
Are you really planning to go to the Dallas Auto Show this week? Bring your K10 if you do and you show me what makes the upgrade so special to you. Let me know when (e-mail addy in profile) I think it'll be fun experimenting with the settings.

Barry
04-01-2008, 06:54 PM   #12
krs
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 395
QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
the k10d has ancient technology 10mp CCD

the K10D is worse at noise handling than the K100D

the K200D uses the exact same chip as the K10D
I know technology moves fast, but ... - ancient?
04-01-2008, 06:56 PM   #13
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 319
Original Poster
Gawd, It's Getting Confusing :)

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Going from 6 to 10MP is not a huge increase... it's marginal. In order "to print an image with twice the area you need to quadruple the pixel count", to quote my own recent article To Say Nothing Of Megapixels. Even upgrading to the K20D will only get you double the size in a single dimension.

If you really want big posters at the same resolution you will need a FF or medium format camera. But most of us don't really need that.
Great Article,
However it seemed it was aimed at P & S cams which I have virtually given up except when I am in a situation where I don't care if the camera gets dirty or need something lightweight.It took me a long time to realize after using super MP bridgecams, that they are basically good for some macro shots and higher resolution "snapshots" The shots I've taken so far with my k100d have more snap at 6mp than my Fuji s8000fd did at 8mp, and it's 18x zoom is a joke compared to my Sigma 300mm as far as quality goes.

Edit: Just re-read the article, you made a point that probably got me banned in DP Review for five days. I've been saying that most people don't look at pics with their nose touching the paper at eye level, I even used the "billboard" analogy" you did. If you stand only four feet from an 8x10 pic shot at 6400, it'll still look good IMHO. Some people are so anal about more MPs.

Barry

Last edited by shutterpuppy; 04-01-2008 at 07:07 PM.
04-01-2008, 06:57 PM   #14
krs
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 395
You are much faster than I. It took my a year until I was ready to upgrade my K100D. I have kept it as a second camera for those low light situations and/or letting my kids (teenager to young adult) use it.

I am very happy with the K10D, expecially given the price I got it for ($509 after rebate). Along with the grip and extra battery, extra features, etc. - I am a happy camper. Next - grow my lens collection!
04-01-2008, 07:48 PM   #15
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Lowell Goudge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,868
Math 101

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Going from 6 to 10MP is not a huge increase... it's marginal. In order "to print an image with twice the area you need to quadruple the pixel count", to quote my own recent article To Say Nothing Of Megapixels. Even upgrading to the K20D will only get you double the size in a single dimension.

If you really want big posters at the same resolution you will need a FF or medium format camera. But most of us don't really need that.
Unfortunately your math is all wrong in the article, giving a lot of misleading guidance.

In your article you state that to print an image twice the size in any linear dimension you need twice the pixel count, (in a linear dimension) OK I can agree with this as long as you stipulate it is the DPI in a linear dimension, but you don't

You then state that to print twice the area, you need 4 times the pixle count (I am assuming you mean here tht toal MP not linear pixels but again this is not stated)

What is wrong with these 2 statements, in the first statement, twice the linear size is 4 times the area, and the total MP count is quadroupled to achieve the same resolution. and in the second, double the area needs double the pixles to have the same pixles per square unit area and the same resolution, not quadroupled as you state.

Lastly you say inthe article that to do more requires A FF sensor, but unless this sensor has more pixles, you will not get any additional benefit in resolution because that is limited by the total pixel count and some FF cameras are less than 14 MP of the K20D.

If you go back to the question the OP has raised, what is the value of going from 6mp to 10 mp without other benefits, the K100D already has shake reduction, and unless there is a deliberate intent to go with a bunch of HSM lenses, I personallu don't see the change as having much value.

I went from *istD to k10D in one step, the *istD was ourchased within 1 month of product release, and I had it for over 3 years without changing. The reason, I saw no benefits, until the K10D came out. The K100 with shake reduction on its own was not enough, but the K10D with higher resolution, and yes the difference was enough, plus shake reduction, much higher frame rates, faster buffer, and HSM support was enough of a change. The OP needs to figure out for himself if HSM and 10 MP on thier own are enough.

If he really wants 3200 ISO, and I still use the *istD for this, then keep the K100D as a back up, it sounds like the controls are much the same.

I don't see noise as an issue, the K20D works just fine up to 1600, in my opinion.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, dslr, k100d, k200d, mp, photography, situations
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stupid flash! Probably just stupid operator... misscream Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 4 09-18-2010 11:11 AM
Stupid is as stupid does.........Forrest Gump Phil1 General Talk 46 01-07-2010 01:29 PM
Stupid question. Looking for stupid answer. dws1117 General Talk 22 11-05-2008 09:51 AM
I almost did something stupid. johnny9fingers Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 2 06-24-2008 10:48 AM
stupid flash, stupid dark bar, urgh Gooshin Post Your Photos! 7 06-20-2008 12:14 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:30 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top