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11-11-2013, 04:50 AM   #1
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Pentax Real control camera.

Ok, so the terrible Nikon DF got me thinking. Its really lacking in the take back control department. And I thought the concept itself is not a problem, just the execution and price.
One of my ideas that I would like to see in a future camera with such a concept (please Pentax) is the ISO less (read gainless) camera.
The ability to actually play around with the sensor would be my idea of proper control. having absolutely no gain applied would mean low possibility of clipping. They could do this with a simulated jpeg and a proper ungained RAW. How about faster than x-sync syncing. 1/180th is probably a P-ttl limit. How about a CCD sensor ( even leica could not keep the Kodak sensor look when moving to CMOS)
Any other concepts that are not limiting that could be implemented.
Real K mount.
Undergaining. (even lower sensitivity) ?

P.S I do not mind having a camera only I can use.

11-11-2013, 10:42 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
How about a CCD sensor
Pentax still offer one in the 645D.
11-11-2013, 02:25 PM   #3
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I think it is a little early to ask for such a unique camera in a very open market.

Pentax has just only just re-taken poll position in the APS-C Market with the K-3, and needs to work on furthering its lineup to meet the market demand [Yes, a full frame DSLR w/ zoom and prime lenses]

It is an interesting concept, but I would rather see Pentax produce at least one professional full frame camera before undertaking the tedious task of creating a new line of modern digital cameras.
11-11-2013, 03:28 PM   #4
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Just release the firmware under GPL licence. That would be a "real control camera"! And they would change the industry over night.

11-11-2013, 03:35 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lage Quote
Just release the firmware under GPL licence. That would be a "real control camera"! And they would change the industry over night.

+1
- how great would that be... own filters, own noise-reduction algorithms, af-tracking algorithms ...
11-12-2013, 06:58 AM   #6
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1/180 sync is a shutter limit, not a pttl limit.In fact pttl *allows* for faster sync than x-sync.

As for ISOless, I don't think it is smart. It is one advantage of digital to be able to set 3 parameters instead of two. Why delete one deliberately ?
11-12-2013, 01:01 PM   #7
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It will never happen. Not from Pentax, Not from Sony, Not from Canon, not from Olympus.

Why? Because Ricoh, like most major electronics producers, licenses all sorts of intellectual property in order to include various features in its camera. Heck, they just paid a hefty settlement with Kodak to settle a dispute over patents/licenses. They can't simply open up the firmware and give away their implementations without running afoul of these agreements.

Likewise, Ricoh doubtlessly has some of its own trade secrets it has incorporated in its design for the K-5, particularly with respect to the new moire filter. And the thing with trade secrets, is once they are made public, intentionally or otherwise, they are no longer legally protectible!

The best you could hope for would be some kind of bare bones, base-level OS and/or a published API.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lage Quote
Just release the firmware under GPL licence. That would be a "real control camera"! And they would change the industry over night.
11-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #8
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Well if you want full control of a camera then you can always get an old Pentax KX, MX or LX film body.
They are fully manual, FF and have retro styling. You select the ISO based on the type of film you want to shoot.
Very cheap as well, a freshly CLA’d KX or MX will cost around $200-250 and an LX around $400.00.

Phil.

11-12-2013, 02:37 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
1/180 sync is a shutter limit, not a pttl limit.In fact pttl *allows* for faster sync than x-sync.

As for ISOless, I don't think it is smart. It is one advantage of digital to be able to set 3 parameters instead of two. Why delete one deliberately ?
firstly the 1/180th limit was introduced only with the first P-TTL camera from pentax, before that they had something called the Z-1/Z-1p that had a limit of 1/250th TTL limit. The MZ-S came along with P-TTL and a 1/180th limit that every Pentax camera has abided to high or low. HSS is limited in power output. I would rather have a completely manual sync if possible. allowing for the physical limit of the shutter mechanism and not one imposed by P-TTL.

secondly, an isoless camera will give truly raw images at the base sensitivity of the sensor, at any speed/aperture combination. having any sensor pre-amped means that you can hit into clipping sooner/easier. recent Sony sensors give me the impression that it is possible to just apply digital gain in PP.

Last edited by Steelski; 11-14-2013 at 12:46 AM. Reason: typos
11-12-2013, 08:09 PM   #10
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It might be a good idea to start debunking the isoless sensor concept. Beyond question, the new technologies have lowered noise by a combination of limiting gain, smoothing, and allowing dynamic range to suffer. If we tell the camera companies we really like the isoless concept, I fear that they might actually implement it! This would be like saying we like no-focus binoculars. No fuss, no muss, and nothing truly sharp. The last thing we should hope to have is higher ISOs that are soft, with limited dynamic range. Getting to high quality low light imaging requires a number of calculated compromises; isoless sensors would stand in the way of achieving that goal.
11-13-2013, 09:51 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
firstly the 1/180th limit was introduced only with the first P-TTL camera from pentax, before that they had something called the Z-1/Z-1p that had a limit of 1/250th TTP limit. The MZ-S came along with P-TTL and a 1/180th limit that every Pentax camera has abided to high or low. HSS is limited in power output. I would rather have a completely manual sync if possible. alowing for the physical limit of the shutter mechanism and not one imposed by P-TTL.
And both max sync speed are function of the shutter, nothing else. This is a mechanical issue, not a tech one.
As for PTTL other cams did use PTTL and offer other speeds: MZ6@1/125 and ist-D@1/160.
Those speeds are slower indeed but I don't see a reson why it would be linked. It is not linked in any other cam manufacturer either.
The only culprit is the shutter.


QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
secondly, an isoless camera will give trully raw images at the base sensitivity of the sensor, at any speed/aperture combination. having any sensor preamped means that you can hit into clipping sooner/easier. recent Sony sensors give me the impression that it is possible to just apply digital gain in PP.
Well, set the Iso to lowest value.
11-13-2013, 07:31 PM   #12
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I recall my old Minolta X-GM , i seemed to get along just fine with the few exposure options it had. in camera light meter told you the shutter speed, and poof you took a picture,, or you went full manual and used an exposure chart in your bag. A digital camera like that would indeed be interesting. Maybe not for the PRO, who actually uses the features in the high end DSLRs, but the Enthusiast would love a camera like that.
11-14-2013, 01:07 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
It might be a good idea to start debunking the isoless sensor concept. Beyond question, the new technologies have lowered noise by a combination of limiting gain, smoothing, and allowing dynamic range to suffer. If we tell the camera companies we really like the isoless concept, I fear that they might actually implement it! This would be like saying we like no-focus binoculars. No fuss, no muss, and nothing truly sharp. The last thing we should hope to have is higher ISOs that are soft, with limited dynamic range. Getting to high quality low light imaging requires a number of calculated compromises; isoless sensors would stand in the way of achieving that goal.
Why would no gain be bad. If using 14-15 or 16 bit RAW? Uncomressed/unclipped. I think this deserves a separate thread.
11-14-2013, 06:51 AM - 1 Like   #14
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Hey let's do the first thing first. Give us iso50.
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