K10D underexposing?

nosnoop · 04-02-2008, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Geekybiker

I'm not sure. I know that my Fuji f30 PS camera has far less tendency to give me dark images that need adjustment in post though. And my canon s400 before that, and so on on down the line.

And that's exactly what I talked about in the post above. P&S usually don't try to preserve highlight as much as DSLR. The F30, especially, is known to have blown highlights very easily during outdoors day light shots. P&S crowd usually don't do much PP and they don't care as much about blown highlights. And that's the reason for the different exposure bias.

simonkit · 04-02-2008, 03:10 PM

I own the GX10 (K10D clone) and it has the same "characteristics" - I frequently use +0.5/1 exposure compensation. Pentax/Samsung try to protect us from clipping highlights so it just takes a short while to get used to

simon

Old Timer 56 · 04-02-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by madisonphotogrl

I feel that my new K10D is underexposing my outdoor photos my a full 1/2 stop. Is this common? Should I exchange my camera?

Help...

Nikki

Both of my K10D bodies were pretty accurate exposure-wise until the firmware on one of them was upgraded to version 1.3 by Pentax repair. Now that body consistently underexposes by about .7 stop. Go figure.

Richard

hhays · 04-02-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by madisonphotogrl

Thanks Will. I think it my be deliberate too. I think it's sort of nice because a photo professor once told me if you are over exposed (or maybe it was underexposed too much) you can't really recover. I don't mind the post processing and I guess I could tell the K10D to overexpose a 1/3 or so. (I estimated a 1/2 stop because I was using light room and just moved the bar until it looked right. I'm still getting used to pp.) I was able to tweak it a little in lightroom, it was fun..

Rockies.. I was on multi segmented metering. I never even thought to check it. I have always used center metering. the multi seg metering may have helped on some of the picts. I never used the other focusing points I focus on my subject and recompose my shot, have ever since I was in school when learning on the K1000.

So it's going to be nice today. i will go try today again.

I don't know if you peeked.. but check my pictures out at
Flickr: Photos from NJB Photography

I looked at the photo on you flickr, it may be a dark photo, but i would hesitate to say it is underexposed. There are no specular hightlights in the photo, and judging by the length of the shadow in the foreground, I would say this is pretty late in the day, right? (This is all subjective, after all.) Check your camera by shooting mid-day, and find something that is shiny white so you can compare heavily reflected, specular highlight to the rest of the white object. It would be great to see this photo posted also.

WMBP · 04-02-2008, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by hhays

I looked at the photo on you flickr, it may be a dark photo, but i would hesitate to say it is underexposed. There are no specular hightlights in the photo, and judging by the length of the shadow in the foreground, I would say this is pretty late in the day, right? (This is all subjective, after all.)

Yes, I agree and intended to mention this earlier. I wondered why you thought this picture was underexposed. It might be, but as hhays says, that's a subjective judgment, or perhaps it's a judgment that can only be made comparing the photo to the original - and even then, it's only going to be an underexposure if you were really trying to get the photo to look exactly like the original.

Now, I hasten to add that this "it's all subjective" thing doesn't mean that it's always all subjective (so to speak). If you show us a photo of a lake and the shoreline, as long as we can see things clearly in the photo and it's not dramatically overexposed or underexposed, then it's hard for anybody to say whether it's overexposed or underexposed at all. But if the sky is just a big bright blank WHITE with a few traces of what we suspect are clouds but no other details, then most of us would say that's an overexposure. And if the sky seems about right - we can see the clouds really nicely - but we can't see a thing on the ground, that's pretty obviously an underexposure.

Balance, balance, balance. It's all about balance.

Will

rfortson · 04-02-2008, 08:19 PM

My K10D seemed to underexpose a bit. My DL, K100D, and current K20D all seem more "accurate", meaning the exposure histogram is more centered. The K10D always seemed to clip the black portions.

JohnM · 04-03-2008, 08:36 AM

My GX-10 underexposes (to my taste) about .7. So I just dial in +.7 and I get exposures that I like better. However I know I still have a LOT to learn about metering and exposing so I don't doubt that I am doing something incorrect. I try to use spot metering the most, but like Will said, that has its drawbacks. I have to practice more. But I AM having fun... and getting some good results (esp with some PP)

more from me at Flickr: Photos from QuantumJedi

deludel · 06-12-2008, 11:02 PM

This is a great thread .. hopefully I can resurrect it to some extent, and get clarification on some of the points.

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

If these don't work, and the underexposure is consistent, just dial in exposure compensation and leave it there. You can memorize this in the USER mode.

I was blessed to some extent that I took a DLSR class pretty soon after I got my k10, and got into Manual right away, and have stayed there. I typically use the green button to meter, then compensate exposure .. and sure enough, I almost always go up, never down. However, I have recently been learning more about the perks of AV or TV modes, but I become very frustrated when I try them, because I am limited by not being able to compensate the exposure!!

Here's my question: when you talk about "just dial in exposure compensation" ... I assume you are not talking about AV/TV? And, if the k10 DOES underexpose .. how can anyone every use AV/TV accurately? (without PP)

Originally posted by WMBP

Anyway, the problem for me has been consistent and I usually just compensate slightly.

The key thing is to know that the meter is consistent. Will

Will - what mode are you in when are are talking about compensating?

Originally posted by WMBP

The histogram can be very helpful, but you should use the histogram, not let the histogram push you around. The feature on your camera that tells you when you've blown the highlights (or the blacks) is actually more useful than the histogram, much of the time.

Will - this was a great post, really captured the metering modes in a way that made sense .. have you ever done any curriculum writing?

Anyway, I am not sure what you meant in the quote above - what feature is more useful than the histogram? Did I miss something?

Originally posted by mattdm

The K10D (and I assume all the rest) also has a "fourth" option for metering, the Link AE and AF option in the custom menu. This changes the matrix metering dial section to instead be spot metering on the selected focus point.

Dang it, just when I thought I was getting familiar with this camera! I have no idea what this means .. but will look it up!

egordon99 · 06-13-2008, 03:56 AM

??????
If you are in Av mode (my mode of choice except for indoor flash work), you HAVE exposure compensation!
Say You're in Av mode and select f/4, ISO200. The meter gives you 1/1000s. You take a shot. Shot is a little underexposed (say there's alot of bright sky in the shot). You set the exposure compensation (by default, it's the rear dial on the K10D in Av mode, if I recall correctly; front dial is the f-stop) up ONE stop. The shutter speed will now become 1/500s and your shot will be one stop brighter. Likewise, you can set a negative EC, so -1EC would give you 1/2000s

Clear as mud?

pentkon52 · 06-13-2008, 04:05 AM

Just a bit of FYI for you.

I find my Pentax cameras, istD and K10D like +0.3 ev on most shots.

My D1H is always set at+0.3, as is my D2H

My D1 likes no ev comp

My D200 like it closer to +0.7

Dave

**Lowell Goudge** · 06-13-2008, 05:28 AM

before we go too far in discussing the metering issue, can you take a shot of a plain wall uniformly lit, what is the histogram value in this case?

ukbluetooth · 06-13-2008, 05:38 AM

I used to think my K10D underexposed.

Now I realise that it was me, not the camera. In fact I am impressed by how well it does meter. The attached picture for example - shot yesterday

Sigma 10-20 f4 at 10mm
1/60 sec @ F11
Center weighted metering
No exposure compensation
Straight RAW conversion (just a little sharpening - maybe too much)

In the past I would have added some exposure compensation in ACR to make a brighter picture - But NO. This is what the day was like - the light is captured as it was. The metering to me is spot on though you may disagree.

All metering is fooled by unusual conditions - snow, sky, sea etc. Then it is necessary to add/subtract compensation. I personally think of exposure compensation as adjusting what the camera is metering on to mid grey - compensating the scene rather than the camera, but that is just my oddball way of looking at things.

I love the way this camera meters and with so much flexibility.

deludel · 06-13-2008, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by egordon99

??????
If you are in Av mode (my mode of choice except for indoor flash work), you HAVE exposure compensation!
Say You're in Av mode and select f/4, ISO200. The meter gives you 1/1000s. You take a shot. Shot is a little underexposed (say there's alot of bright sky in the shot). You set the exposure compensation (by default, it's the rear dial on the K10D in Av mode, if I recall correctly; front dial is the f-stop) up ONE stop. The shutter speed will now become 1/500s and your shot will be one stop brighter. Likewise, you can set a negative EC, so -1EC would give you 1/2000s

Clear as mud?

Maybe my settings are different and I don't know?? When I am in AV (just tried it now), the rear e-dial adjusts the f/stop and the front e-dial doesn't do a dang thing! The Exposure Compensation just blinks there right in the middle .. but won't/can't change.

Lowell - I took the pic of the white wall in Av (multisegmented metering) with a few diff f/stops ... all histograms showed underexposed. Not sure what the negative value is ... but of the 4 columns in the histogram, it was all in the first one to the left ... but far the the left of that one ...

I'd screenprint it from Elements, but let's just say that computer decided to go on strike this week, and I am still negotiating it's return!!

egordon99 · 06-13-2008, 06:48 AM

Break out your manual. I believe there are custom settings which determines which dials do what in each mode. I had my K10D setup so in Av mode the rear dial with the f-stop, and the front dial was ISO. For EC, I pressed a button (forgot which one) and the front dial then did EC, but I'm pretty sure the default is front dial EC in Av mode.

Once you figure this out, it will be much quicker than going into Manual mode, pressing green button to get the settings (Av mode will do this part automatically), and then adjusting the shutter speed after a test shot (EC will do this part for you)

jeffkrol · 06-13-2008, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by deludel

Maybe my settings are different and I don't know?? When I am in AV (just tried it now), the rear e-dial adjusts the f/stop and the front e-dial doesn't do a dang thing! The Exposure Compensation just blinks there right in the middle .. but won't/can't change.

Lowell - I took the pic of the white wall in Av (multisegmented metering) with a few diff f/stops ... all histograms showed underexposed. Not sure what the negative value is ... but of the 4 columns in the histogram, it was all in the first one to the left ... but far the the left of that one ...

I'd screenprint it from Elements, but let's just say that computer decided to go on strike this week, and I am still negotiating it's return!!

This is a bit crude but you should get the idea.
If your "white wall" shot is averaging anywhere from 90 to 110 then it's pretty well as Pentax designed it. One catch is to be careful that your photo editor isn't applying any presets to the image.

06-12-2008, 11:02 PM	#23
deludel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Durham, CT Posts: 196	Trying to Resurrect this Thread! This is a great thread .. hopefully I can resurrect it to some extent, and get clarification on some of the points. Originally posted by Canada_Rockies If these don't work, and the underexposure is consistent, just dial in exposure compensation and leave it there. You can memorize this in the USER mode. I was blessed to some extent that I took a DLSR class pretty soon after I got my k10, and got into Manual right away, and have stayed there. I typically use the green button to meter, then compensate exposure .. and sure enough, I almost always go up, never down. However, I have recently been learning more about the perks of AV or TV modes, but I become very frustrated when I try them, because I am limited by not being able to compensate the exposure!! Here's my question: when you talk about "just dial in exposure compensation" ... I assume you are not talking about AV/TV? And, if the k10 DOES underexpose .. how can anyone every use AV/TV accurately? (without PP) Originally posted by WMBP Anyway, the problem for me has been consistent and I usually just compensate slightly. The key thing is to know that the meter is consistent. Will Will - what mode are you in when are are talking about compensating? Originally posted by WMBP The histogram can be very helpful, but you should use the histogram, not let the histogram push you around. The feature on your camera that tells you when you've blown the highlights (or the blacks) is actually more useful than the histogram, much of the time. Will - this was a great post, really captured the metering modes in a way that made sense .. have you ever done any curriculum writing? Anyway, I am not sure what you meant in the quote above - what feature is more useful than the histogram? Did I miss something? Originally posted by mattdm The K10D (and I assume all the rest) also has a "fourth" option for metering, the Link AE and AF option in the custom menu. This changes the matrix metering dial section to instead be spot metering on the selected focus point. Dang it, just when I thought I was getting familiar with this camera! I have no idea what this means .. but will look it up!

06-13-2008, 05:38 AM	#27
ukbluetooth Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 189	I dont think K10D underexposes... I used to think my K10D underexposed. Now I realise that it was me, not the camera. In fact I am impressed by how well it does meter. The attached picture for example - shot yesterday Sigma 10-20 f4 at 10mm 1/60 sec @ F11 Center weighted metering No exposure compensation Straight RAW conversion (just a little sharpening - maybe too much) In the past I would have added some exposure compensation in ACR to make a brighter picture - But NO. This is what the day was like - the light is captured as it was. The metering to me is spot on though you may disagree. All metering is fooled by unusual conditions - snow, sky, sea etc. Then it is necessary to add/subtract compensation. I personally think of exposure compensation as adjusting what the camera is metering on to mid grey - compensating the scene rather than the camera, but that is just my oddball way of looking at things. I love the way this camera meters and with so much flexibility. Last edited by ukbluetooth; 11-14-2008 at 05:40 AM.

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04-02-2008, 02:03 PM	#16
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by Geekybiker I'm not sure. I know that my Fuji f30 PS camera has far less tendency to give me dark images that need adjustment in post though. And my canon s400 before that, and so on on down the line. And that's exactly what I talked about in the post above. P&S usually don't try to preserve highlight as much as DSLR. The F30, especially, is known to have blown highlights very easily during outdoors day light shots. P&S crowd usually don't do much PP and they don't care as much about blown highlights. And that's the reason for the different exposure bias.

04-02-2008, 03:10 PM	#17
simonkit Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: North Wales, UK Posts: 645	I own the GX10 (K10D clone) and it has the same "characteristics" - I frequently use +0.5/1 exposure compensation. Pentax/Samsung try to protect us from clipping highlights so it just takes a short while to get used to simon

04-02-2008, 03:13 PM	#18
Old Timer 56 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New York Posts: 168	Originally posted by madisonphotogrl I feel that my new K10D is underexposing my outdoor photos my a full 1/2 stop. Is this common? Should I exchange my camera? Help... Nikki Both of my K10D bodies were pretty accurate exposure-wise until the firmware on one of them was upgraded to version 1.3 by Pentax repair. Now that body consistently underexposes by about .7 stop. Go figure. Richard

04-02-2008, 05:40 PM	#19
hhays Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 39	Originally posted by madisonphotogrl Thanks Will. I think it my be deliberate too. I think it's sort of nice because a photo professor once told me if you are over exposed (or maybe it was underexposed too much) you can't really recover. I don't mind the post processing and I guess I could tell the K10D to overexpose a 1/3 or so. (I estimated a 1/2 stop because I was using light room and just moved the bar until it looked right. I'm still getting used to pp.) I was able to tweak it a little in lightroom, it was fun.. Rockies.. I was on multi segmented metering. I never even thought to check it. I have always used center metering. the multi seg metering may have helped on some of the picts. I never used the other focusing points I focus on my subject and recompose my shot, have ever since I was in school when learning on the K1000. So it's going to be nice today. i will go try today again. I don't know if you peeked.. but check my pictures out at Flickr: Photos from NJB Photography I looked at the photo on you flickr, it may be a dark photo, but i would hesitate to say it is underexposed. There are no specular hightlights in the photo, and judging by the length of the shadow in the foreground, I would say this is pretty late in the day, right? (This is all subjective, after all.) Check your camera by shooting mid-day, and find something that is shiny white so you can compare heavily reflected, specular highlight to the rest of the white object. It would be great to see this photo posted also.

04-02-2008, 06:20 PM	#20
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by hhays I looked at the photo on you flickr, it may be a dark photo, but i would hesitate to say it is underexposed. There are no specular hightlights in the photo, and judging by the length of the shadow in the foreground, I would say this is pretty late in the day, right? (This is all subjective, after all.) Yes, I agree and intended to mention this earlier. I wondered why you thought this picture was underexposed. It might be, but as hhays says, that's a subjective judgment, or perhaps it's a judgment that can only be made comparing the photo to the original - and even then, it's only going to be an underexposure if you were really trying to get the photo to look exactly like the original. Now, I hasten to add that this "it's all subjective" thing doesn't mean that it's always all subjective (so to speak). If you show us a photo of a lake and the shoreline, as long as we can see things clearly in the photo and it's not dramatically overexposed or underexposed, then it's hard for anybody to say whether it's overexposed or underexposed at all. But if the sky is just a big bright blank WHITE with a few traces of what we suspect are clouds but no other details, then most of us would say that's an overexposure. And if the sky seems about right - we can see the clouds really nicely - but we can't see a thing on the ground, that's pretty obviously an underexposure. Balance, balance, balance. It's all about balance. Will

04-02-2008, 08:19 PM	#21
rfortson Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston TX Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,129	My K10D seemed to underexpose a bit. My DL, K100D, and current K20D all seem more "accurate", meaning the exposure histogram is more centered. The K10D always seemed to clip the black portions.

04-03-2008, 08:36 AM	#22
JohnM Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois Photos: Gallery Posts: 39	My GX-10 underexposes (to my taste) about .7. So I just dial in +.7 and I get exposures that I like better. However I know I still have a LOT to learn about metering and exposing so I don't doubt that I am doing something incorrect. I try to use spot metering the most, but like Will said, that has its drawbacks. I have to practice more. But I AM having fun... and getting some good results (esp with some PP) more from me at Flickr: Photos from QuantumJedi

06-13-2008, 03:56 AM	#24
egordon99 Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Outside of Philly Posts: 1,561	?????? If you are in Av mode (my mode of choice except for indoor flash work), you HAVE exposure compensation! Say You're in Av mode and select f/4, ISO200. The meter gives you 1/1000s. You take a shot. Shot is a little underexposed (say there's alot of bright sky in the shot). You set the exposure compensation (by default, it's the rear dial on the K10D in Av mode, if I recall correctly; front dial is the f-stop) up ONE stop. The shutter speed will now become 1/500s and your shot will be one stop brighter. Likewise, you can set a negative EC, so -1EC would give you 1/2000s Clear as mud?

06-13-2008, 04:05 AM	#25
pentkon52 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: York Region Canada Posts: 641	Just a bit of FYI for you. I find my Pentax cameras, istD and K10D like +0.3 ev on most shots. My D1H is always set at+0.3, as is my D2H My D1 likes no ev comp My D200 like it closer to +0.7 Dave

06-13-2008, 05:28 AM	#26
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	before we go too far in discussing the metering issue, can you take a shot of a plain wall uniformly lit, what is the histogram value in this case?

06-13-2008, 06:43 AM	#28
deludel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Durham, CT Posts: 196	Originally posted by egordon99 ?????? If you are in Av mode (my mode of choice except for indoor flash work), you HAVE exposure compensation! Say You're in Av mode and select f/4, ISO200. The meter gives you 1/1000s. You take a shot. Shot is a little underexposed (say there's alot of bright sky in the shot). You set the exposure compensation (by default, it's the rear dial on the K10D in Av mode, if I recall correctly; front dial is the f-stop) up ONE stop. The shutter speed will now become 1/500s and your shot will be one stop brighter. Likewise, you can set a negative EC, so -1EC would give you 1/2000s Clear as mud? Maybe my settings are different and I don't know?? When I am in AV (just tried it now), the rear e-dial adjusts the f/stop and the front e-dial doesn't do a dang thing! The Exposure Compensation just blinks there right in the middle .. but won't/can't change. Lowell - I took the pic of the white wall in Av (multisegmented metering) with a few diff f/stops ... all histograms showed underexposed. Not sure what the negative value is ... but of the 4 columns in the histogram, it was all in the first one to the left ... but far the the left of that one ... I'd screenprint it from Elements, but let's just say that computer decided to go on strike this week, and I am still negotiating it's return!!

06-13-2008, 06:48 AM	#29
egordon99 Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Outside of Philly Posts: 1,561	Break out your manual. I believe there are custom settings which determines which dials do what in each mode. I had my K10D setup so in Av mode the rear dial with the f-stop, and the front dial was ISO. For EC, I pressed a button (forgot which one) and the front dial then did EC, but I'm pretty sure the default is front dial EC in Av mode. Once you figure this out, it will be much quicker than going into Manual mode, pressing green button to get the settings (Av mode will do this part automatically), and then adjusting the shutter speed after a test shot (EC will do this part for you)

06-13-2008, 07:01 AM	#30
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by deludel Maybe my settings are different and I don't know?? When I am in AV (just tried it now), the rear e-dial adjusts the f/stop and the front e-dial doesn't do a dang thing! The Exposure Compensation just blinks there right in the middle .. but won't/can't change. Lowell - I took the pic of the white wall in Av (multisegmented metering) with a few diff f/stops ... all histograms showed underexposed. Not sure what the negative value is ... but of the 4 columns in the histogram, it was all in the first one to the left ... but far the the left of that one ... I'd screenprint it from Elements, but let's just say that computer decided to go on strike this week, and I am still negotiating it's return!! This is a bit crude but you should get the idea. If your "white wall" shot is averaging anywhere from 90 to 110 then it's pretty well as Pentax designed it. One catch is to be careful that your photo editor isn't applying any presets to the image.