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05-03-2016, 07:48 AM   #1861
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QuoteOriginally posted by wtlwdwgn Quote
There's no substitute for the correct exposure.
But with the Sony sensor you can get away with underexposure. You just left the exposure in post and the colors are fine. Never as good as CCD of course but about as good as if you had exposed properly, even if you underexposed by up to 3 stops. That is what I meant. Even with the Samsung sensor you can lift about 1-1.5 stop and the colors will be fine. Now with the CCD, if you are 1.5 stops down, your colors get MUCH darker and there's nothing you can do to get them back to what they looked like in real life.

---------- Post added 05-03-16 at 11:07 AM ----------

And I said I was going to offer more thoughts on the CCD... so now let's look at this picture:



With the K20D on a shot like that (shot during my lunch break), the lights would be overblown and the shade would be really dark. Most of the time I wouldn't even attempt a shot like this. I'd have to expose for the sunlit grass and the grass in the shade would be basically black. Then I'd have to pull out a couple of stops of fill light to the shadows and that would add so much noise that I would just throw the pic away.

Now with the K10D's CCD, there are NO overblown highlights anywhere to be found, and I've only added a half a stop of light to the frog, which you barely notice - if you do PP you know what I mean. The SOOC picture would be enough here. So the CCD sensor just *naturally* has more dynamic range, like negative film, and that is something that I guess the sensor tests can't qualify. They can test how much dynamic range the actual image has and how much you can push the image, but there's no test that will compare the dynamic range of the original scene you photographed and then compare it with the image you took.

Of course with the newer Sony sensors, I would have enough dynamic range to make this shot work as well. That is not the point... the point is how film-like the CCD behaves regarding lights and shadows... naturally. As long as you expose correctly, I had to take like 5 different shots to get this one, as I'm still learning the K10D

So cheers to the K10D - it's already been worth the change from the K20D to it, for me. I wish they hadn't stop developing CCDs. Only God knows what they could have come up with by now if it wasn't for the need for video... I hear Leica wants to bring the CCD back in one of their upcoming cameras, but of course that will be too salty for me. My car is not worth what a new Leica is worth... just to put things in perspective


Last edited by ChristianRock; 05-03-2016 at 08:10 AM.
05-03-2016, 09:35 AM   #1862
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I agree completely about the CCD sensor having film-like behaviour. For me that has been its greatest advantage: that I can shoot digitally using exactly the same approach that I used with slide film for 30 years -- and get results that look exactly the way I want straight off the camera, with almost no post-processing required.

For the past four months I've been struggling to adapt to the K-S1 with its CMOS sensor, and I've had to completely rethink my entire approach to digital photography. In fact, I'd say that I'm really having to learn digital photography for the first time, after years of being able to shoot the CCD sensor exactly as if it was slide film. With the CMOS sensor the end result seems to have more to do with what you do in post-processing than what you do with the camera itself, while with the CCD you can pretty much do it all in-camera.
05-03-2016, 09:58 AM   #1863
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CR & Dave: You make some valid points. I've only ever owned CCD bodies (ist, K100, K10), and the files all process similarly. I recently picked up a Fuji X10 compact as a walkaround camera. The files from its 12 mp CMOS sensor are so radically different from my Pentax bodies, I've had to re-learn my processing techniques. Of course part of that is due to a smaller & totally different sensor, but the tones & colors are not similar at all. I was recently talking to PF member Colton Allen about his techniques for making the Fuji files look less digital and film-like. Some of his ideas may apply to your K-S1 files, Dave.

If you're interested, the discussion is here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/166...tures-329.html

Last edited by paulh; 05-03-2016 at 11:52 AM.
05-03-2016, 11:36 AM   #1864
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Thanks for the link, Paul. It's a fascinating discussion, and I'm going to keep my eye on that thread to try to pick up any further tips that come along. It's amazing and inspiring to see the film-like results that Colton (AKA Swift1) is getting. I've been admiring his work in the film thread for a long time.

05-07-2016, 08:30 AM - 2 Likes   #1865
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Here's a little contribution to the k10d ccd sensor love!

I tried to take two similar images on my k10d with a Tak 55mm and my A7 with the Tak 85m. The photos were taken at F4 within a couple of minutes of each other in similar lighting conditions. Both cameras were set to ISO100.

K10D/55m/F4



Sony A7 / Tak 85mm / F4



To my eyes the K10d colours are richer but also more natural.
05-07-2016, 09:08 AM   #1866
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamess Quote
Here's a little contribution to the k10d ccd sensor love!

Wow, those two photos say it all. The bottom one with the A7 is flat and lifeless; the top one with the K10D is deep and rich and vivid. Okay, so maybe you could post-process the A7 shot to artificially give it some more richness, but with the K10D shot there's no need to -- you get that intensity as an innate characteristic of the sensor.

Next time somebody asks me why I still prefer CCD over CMOS, I'm going to point them straight at those two photos and let them figure it out for themselves.
05-07-2016, 11:30 AM   #1867
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I also like the K10D picture better.

Maybe a 645D one day might be my ultimate objective the most CCD goodness you can ever want!

In the meantime... my K10D will do
05-11-2016, 05:56 PM - 1 Like   #1868
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Oak blossoms, taken in March with the F80-200:


05-12-2016, 09:34 AM - 2 Likes   #1869
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Interesting light reflections and mist on the Chattahoochee river...



And look at these colors pretty much SOOC


Last edited by ChristianRock; 05-12-2016 at 10:01 AM.
05-13-2016, 06:50 AM   #1870
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ChristianRock, beautiful photos

QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
I agree completely about the CCD sensor having film-like behaviour. For me that has been its greatest advantage: that I can shoot digitally using exactly the same approach that I used with slide film for 30 years -- and get results that look exactly the way I want straight off the camera, with almost no post-processing required.
QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
Now with the K10D's CCD, there are NO overblown highlights anywhere to be found, and I've only added a half a stop of light to the frog, which you barely notice - if you do PP you know what I mean. The SOOC picture would be enough here. So the CCD sensor just *naturally* has more dynamic range, like negative film, and that is something that I guess the sensor tests can't qualify. They can test how much dynamic range the actual image has and how much you can push the image, but there's no test that will compare the dynamic range of the original scene you photographed and then compare it with the image you took.
Guys, can you explain, please, what film-shooting approach do you use?
05-13-2016, 07:16 AM - 1 Like   #1871
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QuoteOriginally posted by MiLKMAN Quote
ChristianRock, beautiful photos
Thank you

QuoteQuote:
Guys, can you explain, please, what film-shooting approach do you use?
Well the first part of the approach of shooting film-like is using raw, meaning you can develop the picture in different ways later.

So with the CMOS sensor there is a LOT of work that is required to make a picture look well from RAW. If you shoot JPEG that isn't really an issue because the JPEG engines have gotten pretty good and give very good results - however you can't really be in control of how your pictures turn out. RAW will allow for that.

Also, with the CMOS sensors I ended up always underexposing the picture a bit so I wouldn't blow up the highlights. The K10D doesn't blow up highlights as easily, as my frog picture showed. So with the K10D I can expose to the center or even slightly to the right - depending on what I want to do - and still keep more highlights. That gives me better color rendering (the K10D's CCD will change how a color is rendered depending on how you expose - CMOS will just give you that same color, which might or might not be as accurate, but it's what it gives you).

I don't know if I'm good at explaining these things but those are my initial observations. I've only had the K10D for about a month now As soon as I sell some things I have on local Craigslist I'm planning on buying a K-S1 so I can really compare. We also have a K-r but that's the wife's camera so it HAS to stay in JPEG. Or else
05-13-2016, 07:35 AM - 1 Like   #1872
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I completely agree with Christian about the different characteristics of CMOS and CCD sensors.

As for my way of doing things, it's deeply eccentric and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone else would want to do it this way. But it's like this:

I shoot with fully manual lenses, mostly Takumars, which give a naturally film-like look with the 10MP CCD sensor. I keep the white balance set manually to 5600K to replicate the way that daylight balanced slide film captures changes in the light -- except in rare circumstances where it's absolutely essential that whites should be exactly white, such as with wedding dresses. In those cases I take a white balance off a calibrated white/grey card. And I use fully manual exposure with an incident light meter, because I genuinely find it quicker and easier after more than thirty years of using one.

I shoot raw and aim for the minimum possible amount of post-processing, usually just setting white and black points and adjusting the contrast if necessary. If I have to do any more processing than that, it feels like I failed with the camera at the moment I pressed the shutter.

I know that this approach must seem utterly mad to most people, but it's what works for me personally and I enjoy it. It also makes the transition a lot easier when I pick up my K1000 to shoot a roll of Velvia slide film -- I'm using exactly the same techniques with digital and analog.
05-13-2016, 08:13 AM - 1 Like   #1873
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A geranium from yesterday... not completely happy with how that turned out.

05-13-2016, 04:25 PM - 2 Likes   #1874
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There is a 3:30 PM daily feeding of the pelicans at The Entrance channel. They are fed fresh fish from a local fish shop and it is quite a tourist attraction and I took the K10D out to record the action. K10D and Tamron 70-300.

Coming in for a feed.


A few more coming for the fish.


Where are the fish?


Ah, that's better.


Pelican portrait.
05-14-2016, 04:52 AM   #1875
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Super Dooper Zoom. Ah pelicans.
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