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04-03-2008, 02:13 PM   #16
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hm interesting so not only is my old camera's sensor 1/9 the size of my current K10D but it has more gear on it cause I'm sure its an electronic shutter.

04-03-2008, 02:18 PM   #17
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TS,
Perhaps a simpler explanation from Pentax on the difference between a DSLR and a compact P&S here

Essentially that point and shoot camera operates more like a camcorder, recording a single frame of a continuous image. Quite different from a DSLR.
04-03-2008, 02:31 PM   #18
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I'm guessing that the recent introduction of LIve View on DSLRs may well send DSLR manufacturers down the electronic shutter route in the future, the mechanical shutter limits the full effectiveness of Live View.

simon
04-03-2008, 04:21 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by simonkit Quote
I'm guessing that the recent introduction of LIve View on DSLRs may well send DSLR manufacturers down the electronic shutter route in the future, the mechanical shutter limits the full effectiveness of Live View.

simon
I think that may happen once they get over the noise problems as the CCD/CMOS gets warmer when it is powered up. Right now, the longer the sensor stays powered up, the warmer it gets, and this produces digital noise - hence the dark frame subtraction (noise reduction) on longer exposures.

04-03-2008, 04:54 PM   #20
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there is one simple point to think about here, and it is not the shutter. Clearly electronic shutters will get here eventually, and at some point they will offer image quality etc that equals or exceeds a mechanical shutter but reflex means that you are seeing your image through the lens , single lens means this lens is the same one that is taking the image.

Now, while I understand live view is here and getting better, it is very hard on the sensor in terms of heat, because the sensor is now running full time.

If you want to see today's fully electronic version of an SLR with electronic shutter, and an eye level view finder which is still the best for focusing look at any of the Electronic Viewfinder (EVF) cameras. I have one, it is built like a mini slr, and is not bad in bright light, but the image quality for focusing in low light is pathetic at best because you are seeing the boosted image of the sensor through a low resolution eye level monitor (as someone stated essentually a camcorder)

My expectation is that the SLR evolution will move to an electronic shutter long before they replace the penta prism and mirror box, and at the end of the day, it is the mechanics of the mirror return as much as anything that limit frames per second.
04-03-2008, 07:53 PM   #21
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my prediction for future developments:

1. electronic / optical shutter replacing all mechanical and mirror box components but keeps optical viewfinder. Electronically controlled mirror or optical bandpass glass, allowing millions of frames per second.

2. no iso. Signal gain / amplification will become redundant as integration between image data and software becomes more fundamental and manipulable: take a shot, later set white balance, set iso, etc.
04-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by simonkit Quote
I'm guessing that the recent introduction of LIve View on DSLRs may well send DSLR manufacturers down the electronic shutter route in the future, the mechanical shutter limits the full effectiveness of Live View.

simon
But you dont NEED an electronic shutter for a live view feed.

If you put an electronic shutter on an SLR CCD or CMOS sensor you would reduce its sensitivity and noise performance. WHo wants that?

Its a trade off like everything else but if you want higher resolution, then they are not going to add more and more components to the photosite....
04-03-2008, 09:18 PM   #23
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we just need more digital rangefinders...

04-03-2008, 09:36 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
we just need more digital rangefinders...
I wouldnt mind. One that doesnt cost more than an FF dSLR please. If someone could make one with a sensible price then it has potential. Cosina should make a new one, they are making rangefinder lenses still.
04-03-2008, 09:41 PM   #25
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A digital Bessa would be cool. I have to admit that I'm toying with the idea of an M8. Yeah, they are stupid expensive, but for some styles of shooting they are arguably better than a dslr. I haven't played with one yet but that is this weekend's project. The other interesting alternative is that you can go digital medium format for $10K. If you add up how much people end up spending on LBA, it isn't that much more money for a (possibly) significant jump in iq.
04-03-2008, 09:45 PM   #26
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I hope they do realease a reasonable one. The Leica M8 is just darn expensive, and it's not even that good. And the sensor is tiny too. Horrible ISO performance. But with the price low enough, I think I would give it a try. My 1st camera was one of those Russian rangefinders.
04-03-2008, 09:48 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
A digital Bessa would be cool. I have to admit that I'm toying with the idea of an M8. Yeah, they are stupid expensive, but for some styles of shooting they are arguably better than a dslr. I haven't played with one yet but that is this weekend's project. The other interesting alternative is that you can go digital medium format for $10K. If you add up how much people end up spending on LBA, it isn't that much more money for a (possibly) significant jump in iq.
$10k for MF body, but then you have to spend 2-3K for each lens. That's not an easy route to get into. With my current skill, I probably have to think twice before sinking $20k for a usable set.
04-03-2008, 09:54 PM   #28
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no, $10K for a Mamiya ZD/645/80mm/2.8 setup:

310100 Mamiya ZD 645AFD II Digital Camera Kit with ZD 22 Megapixel Digital Back & 80mm f/2.8 AF Lens.

The M8 in the right hands cranks out files as good or better than current dslr cameras. That being said, I'm pretty satisfied so far with the K20d, but it would be nice to have something a bit smaller and quieter for street shooting.
04-03-2008, 10:13 PM   #29
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Unfortunately séamuis, it is that kind of attitude that kept Windows hobbled on top of DOS for so long and why even today we still have IRQs and DMA's on PC's. Besides fewer moving parts means less to break. This is why solid state memory became more popular than Microdrives. As for the if it isn't broke don't fix it line. Well, if we followed that line of thinking we wouldn't be taking pictures as most of us have no interest in pin hole cameras, we would still be using 8" floppy discs for storage, our monitors would be green and monochrome (not green in a good environmentally way either). We would be driing model T's that we had to crank to start and most horrible of all we would be riding on the backs of airline pilots as the rights brother's plane wasn't built for two.

Frankly, given how fast technology has moved I am stunned that PC's are still working with so much old technology and I am even more stunned that camera companies feel it is perfectly alright to couple 21st century electronics with 60 or 70 year old film camera technologies like lenses, shutters and flipping mirrors. Cameras should be solid state by now with the sensor doing the job of the shutter and lenses.

But, then we should all be eating dead people like in Solent Green too. So I guess we do have some blessings.

Robert
04-03-2008, 10:43 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
...besides a simple mechanical device has proved very reliable for a very long time no need to change it for something that hasn't been proven to be as reliable despite whether its cheaper to manufacture or not...
I was going to remark about the fact that, well, maybe a largely solid state device (except for the lens and shutter) like a dslr would benefit from an electronic shutter (not taking into account all the technichalia that others, particularly *isteve, have gone into), but you know what? Solid state has as many (although different) problems as mechanical. Mechanical shutters can execute tens of thousands of operations without issue. Will the same be said for an electronic shutter (with its additional intricacies)?

By-the-bye, séamuis, I love your avatar.
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