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04-03-2008, 11:36 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by and Quote
I wouldnt mind. One that doesnt cost more than an FF dSLR please. If someone could make one with a sensible price then it has potential. Cosina should make a new one, they are making rangefinder lenses still.
A quick search reveals that Cosina already made a digital rangefinders. It's under the name of Epson R-D1. It's about half the cost of the Leica M8. It's only 6MP however. I guess we need more time for these digital rangefinders to come down in price. In the mean time, we probably need to stock some of the lenses. Or else when the surge of digital rangefinders comes, madness would arrive on eBay .

04-04-2008, 01:43 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Robert Barnett Quote
Unfortunately séamuis, it is that kind of attitude that kept Windows hobbled on top of DOS for so long and why even today we still have IRQs and DMA's on PC's. Besides fewer moving parts means less to break. This is why solid state memory became more popular than Microdrives. As for the if it isn't broke don't fix it line. Well, if we followed that line of thinking we wouldn't be taking pictures as most of us have no interest in pin hole cameras, we would still be using 8" floppy discs for storage, our monitors would be green and monochrome (not green in a good environmentally way either). We would be driing model T's that we had to crank to start and most horrible of all we would be riding on the backs of airline pilots as the rights brother's plane wasn't built for two.

Frankly, given how fast technology has moved I am stunned that PC's are still working with so much old technology and I am even more stunned that camera companies feel it is perfectly alright to couple 21st century electronics with 60 or 70 year old film camera technologies like lenses, shutters and flipping mirrors. Cameras should be solid state by now with the sensor doing the job of the shutter and lenses.

But, then we should all be eating dead people like in Solent Green too. So I guess we do have some blessings.

Robert
so what would you have instead of an IRQ in a pc ? an IRQ means a pc can get on with what its doing and only bother about a periphery when the periphery asks for attention leaving the pc more time to work insted of keep checking up on the periphery wasting time. DMA means that a device can communicate directly with the RAM without involving the processor leaving it free to work and speed up memory access the memory controller of a pc that used to be called the DMA chip is basically a coprosessor dedicated to controlling data flow instead of burdening the CPU with it
04-04-2008, 02:58 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by molarade Quote
I was going to remark about the fact that, well, maybe a largely solid state device (except for the lens and shutter) like a dslr would benefit from an electronic shutter (not taking into account all the technichalia that others, particularly *isteve, have gone into), but you know what? Solid state has as many (although different) problems as mechanical. Mechanical shutters can execute tens of thousands of operations without issue. Will the same be said for an electronic shutter (with its additional intricacies)?

By-the-bye, séamuis, I love your avatar.
thats what I was really delving into thanks for the back up on that point.

and who doesn't love Audry Hepburn?
04-04-2008, 05:41 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Imagine with electronic shutters, you can have flash sync up to your maximum shutter speed -(snip)
But I already have that on several mechanical shuttered cameras, many of them half a century old.

04-04-2008, 06:36 AM   #35
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Shutter is essential, just like the aperture

There are various technical problems and physical limits for electronic shutter to work fully and ideally without any issues, e.g., sychronisation, electronic shutter timing accuracy, power up speed of the imager, discharge rate and charge up rate /reset speed and etc. So, a mechanical shutter is still required.

A good example is that Nikon do enable an electronic shutter mode for high speed sync flash but there are still bandings found under some circumstances. As such, higher end Nikon DSLRs will never have this mode - just because there are problems that cannot be totally eliminated, even just for flash exposure.

QuoteOriginally posted by simons-photography Quote
well having graduated into the more elite circle of my snobby "photographic society" with my recent purchase of a K10D and identical pair of lenses that a fellow member got with his new K10D at the same time as me (coincidence) I was invited down to the pub after the meeting

now one member brought up an interesting point: why do we need a shutter on a digital camera ? and do the digicams/bridge cameras and P&S have one at all ?

we discused it a bit and never really came up with a solution to the enigma as it was pointed out there is the option of just turning it on and off to expose the image,

So I ask you what purpose does the shutter serve in a DSLR ? I thought perhaps that by keeping the sensor in the dark it does not get filled with light or something, undounbtedly keeping it off when not required reduces noise due to heating of the sensor but thats a seperate issue.

please help us resolve dilema
04-04-2008, 07:13 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
But I already have that on several mechanical shuttered cameras, many of them half a century old.
I know, there are 2 ways, first, have a flash that has a duration so long that it is lit for the entire sweep of the shutter from top to bottom (in todays example of a vertical shutter). I think that is called a flash bulb, isn't it? OR use a diaphram shutter, where even at 1/500th of a second the full frame was open. Correct me if I am wrong but that was as fast as a diaphram shutter got, at leas the best I ever had . My Yashika 44 is only 1/300
04-04-2008, 09:52 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by molarade Quote
I was going to remark about the fact that, well, maybe a largely solid state device (except for the lens and shutter) like a dslr would benefit from an electronic shutter (not taking into account all the technichalia that others, particularly *isteve, have gone into), but you know what? Solid state has as many (although different) problems as mechanical. Mechanical shutters can execute tens of thousands of operations without issue. Will the same be said for an electronic shutter (with its additional intricacies)?

By-the-bye, séamuis, I love your avatar.
There IS a lot of R&D work being done on electronic shutters. Most consumer handheld video cameras now use electronic shutters, but video cameras only need to capture 1/30 - 1/60 seconds exposures. Most P&S cameras still use a combination of Electronic shutter (for Video capture) and Mechanical (still photographs). dSLR shutters work between 1/4000 seconds to indefinite open.

At this stage of the technology, with all the factors taken into consideration - accuracy, reliability, manufacturing cost, service life etc. mechanical shutters still do a better job on dSLRs.

Someday, I expect, it will all be electronic, including doing away with the moving mirror. It will happen when the technology, performance and cost all makes commercial sense, but we're not there yet.
04-04-2008, 10:18 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
There IS a lot of R&D work being done on electronic shutters. Most consumer handheld video cameras now use electronic shutters, but video cameras only need to capture 1/30 - 1/60 seconds exposures. Most P&S cameras still use a combination of Electronic shutter (for Video capture) and Mechanical (still photographs). dSLR shutters work between 1/4000 seconds to indefinite open.

At this stage of the technology, with all the factors taken into consideration - accuracy, reliability, manufacturing cost, service life etc. mechanical shutters still do a better job on dSLRs.

Someday, I expect, it will all be electronic, including doing away with the moving mirror. It will happen when the technology, performance and cost all makes commercial sense, but we're not there yet.
They already went there - they were called bridge cameras. One of them (Sony R1) even had a near APS size sensor. Sales tanked.

04-04-2008, 11:26 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
They already went there - they were called bridge cameras. One of them (Sony R1) even had a near APS size sensor. Sales tanked.
I dont think its a question of *if* it will happen but when. They will eventually get to the point where the electronic shutter will be better than a mechanical one for pro users. I know there were alot of nay-sayers about digital cameras overtaking film too. The optical view finder is the only thing I have a hard time imagining a digital replacement for. The best displays dont have nearly the density of resolution needed to compete now. Though if they resolve that being able to digitally zoom in for manual focusing past optical limits would be very nice.
04-04-2008, 12:14 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I know, there are 2 ways, first, have a flash that has a duration so long that it is lit for the entire sweep of the shutter from top to bottom (in todays example of a vertical shutter). I think that is called a flash bulb, isn't it? OR use a diaphram shutter, where even at 1/500th of a second the full frame was open. Correct me if I am wrong but that was as fast as a diaphram shutter got, at leas the best I ever had . My Yashika 44 is only 1/300
For what it's worth, my Mamiya C-3 had a fastest speed (and yes x-synchable) of 1/500, and I'm not aware of a faster one having been made. Its diaphragm shutters are lens-mounted rather than body mounted, bringing up the whole issue of paying for the extra cost of the shutter with each lens (for those who don't know, those Mamiya C-series cameras had interchangable lenses). Kinda reminiscent of the IS lens cost issue now!

I never found shake to be an issue with those diaphragm lenses, though. And of course as Twins Lens Reflexes, no mirror flipping up to cause shake either. I used to credit them with what I'd call now about 2 stops worth of "Shake Reduction" over a 35mm SLR!!

As for noise (the audible kind), my Mamiya makes a satisfying "ping" from the springs launching the diaphragm, but you can quieten it by catching the release arm after it had travelled past the release point but before it hits the bit of metal that stopped its travel (MANUAL NOISE REDUCTION!). I had a Yashika too before getting the Mamiya, and it was WONDERFULLY quiet. I'd read some wedding photographers liked to use them for during services to minimize distraction.

SCREW DIGITAL SHUTTERS OR DIGITAL RANGEFINDERS--GIVE ME A DIGITAL TLR!

YAY PARALLAX!
04-04-2008, 12:35 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by David Whiteley Quote
For what it's worth, my Mamiya C-3 had a fastest speed (and yes x-synchable) of 1/500, and I'm not aware of a faster one having been made. Its diaphragm shutters are lens-mounted rather than body mounted, bringing up the whole issue of paying for the extra cost of the shutter with each lens (for those who don't know, those Mamiya C-series cameras had interchangable lenses). Kinda reminiscent of the IS lens cost issue now!

I never found shake to be an issue with those diaphragm lenses, though. And of course as Twins Lens Reflexes, no mirror flipping up to cause shake either. I used to credit them with what I'd call now about 2 stops worth of "Shake Reduction" over a 35mm SLR!!

As for noise (the audible kind), my Mamiya makes a satisfying "ping" from the springs launching the diaphragm, but you can quieten it by catching the release arm after it had travelled past the release point but before it hits the bit of metal that stopped its travel (MANUAL NOISE REDUCTION!). I had a Yashika too before getting the Mamiya, and it was WONDERFULLY quiet. I'd read some wedding photographers liked to use them for during services to minimize distraction.

SCREW DIGITAL SHUTTERS OR DIGITAL RANGEFINDERS--GIVE ME A DIGITAL TLR!

YAY PARALLAX!
My 1/500 was a Kodak shutter if memory serves me correctly, i scrounged it along with a 125mm and 75mm lens for virtually nothing with the intent of making a view camera when I was young and foolish.

I gave them to a friend who had built a view camera as part of his diploma in photography.

What I really liked about them, and also my KX when you shoot ultra low shutter speeds is the whine of the clockwork timing mechanism.

It disappeared overnight with the electronically timed shutters.
04-04-2008, 09:23 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
What I really liked about them, and also my KX when you shoot ultra low shutter speeds is the whine of the clockwork timing mechanism.

It disappeared overnight with the electronically timed shutters.
Or how about this one: mechanical timed shutter releases! With my Olympus OM-2 it was always dicey whether the time-delay springs would tough it out all the way to triggering the release, or run out of gas first.

I took this photo of myself (left) and my band (my first car, a Lada Niva at right) using the mechanical timed shutter release on my Yashika TLR, back in the day (WHIRRRRRRRRR....):
Name:  Troika b&w.jpg
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And I didn't convert that to B&W...it was B&W. Ah, soooooo old-school.

What was the subject of this thread again? Manual camera nostalgia, right?

Last edited by David Whiteley; 04-04-2008 at 09:29 PM.
04-05-2008, 11:25 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by David Whiteley Quote
And I didn't convert that to B&W...it was B&W. Ah, soooooo old-school.

What was the subject of this thread again? Manual camera nostalgia, right?
hm something along those lines....
04-07-2008, 11:00 AM   #44
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Why do we need the shutter?

Why? - man - I just LOVE that sound when I mash down on the button and crank off 10-12 frames while shooting my friends beating each other up on the field in their armor.

So, what, - it should just "beep" or something? Nah. I quote Linus and his sister, Lucy, on that thought. "BLEAH!"

;o)
04-07-2008, 11:08 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by DHCowboy Quote
Why do we need the shutter?

Why? - man - I just LOVE that sound when I mash down on the button and crank off 10-12 frames while shooting my friends beating each other up on the field in their armor.

So, what, - it should just "beep" or something? Nah. I quote Linus and his sister, Lucy, on that thought. "BLEAH!"

;o)
That would mostly be the sound of the mirror you are refering to. shutter and mirror are 2 seperate things
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