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04-09-2008, 05:23 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
There will be no more firmware updates for the K10D ever. Period.

This is unwavering, and they are quite proud of this fact.
Is this an official response or just your opinion as an outsider.

The fact is that there are a couple of issues that are actual product defects, and this is one of them. the other is the metering using manual lenses.

04-09-2008, 08:23 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Is this an official response or just your opinion as an outsider.

The fact is that there are a couple of issues that are actual product defects, and this is one of them. the other is the metering using manual lenses.

Not just my opinion. It was stated proudly by Pentax Germany.


Any firmware update adding obviously possible improved functionality to the K10D would severely hurt K20D sales. Not providing any more firmware updates to the K10D would create many more K20D sales.

Even though most are being strangled just by trying to heat their homes and drive their cars, a majority of list members don't even notice a change in lifestyle whatsoever by current economy/oil prices, so they wonder why can't the K10D just be done with, and can't people just whip out $1200 to buy a K20D already. Its hardly any money anyway, right?
04-09-2008, 09:16 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Even though most are being strangled just by trying to heat their homes and drive their cars, a majority of list members don't even notice a change in lifestyle whatsoever by current economy/oil prices, so they wonder why can't the K10D just be done with, and can't people just whip out $1200 to buy a K20D already. Its hardly any money anyway, right?
Mutley, are you upset about something? Would you like to talk about it?

Will
04-10-2008, 03:25 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Not just my opinion. It was stated proudly by Pentax Germany.


Any firmware update adding obviously possible improved functionality to the K10D would severely hurt K20D sales. Not providing any more firmware updates to the K10D would create many more K20D sales.
I would agree in some regards, but not this time, the same defects I have complained about in the K10D also exist in the K20D In fact, look at the origonal title of the thread Teleconverters on K20D
QuoteQuote:

Even though most are being strangled just by trying to heat their homes and drive their cars, a majority of list members don't even notice a change in lifestyle whatsoever by current economy/oil prices, so they wonder why can't the K10D just be done with, and can't people just whip out $1200 to buy a K20D already. Its hardly any money anyway, right?
As I said previously, the problems I have noted exist also inthe K20D therefore, I do not gain from improved performance. Where is the pentax that claimed to listen to thier customers. They have an otherwise great series of cameras, but seemingly refuse to correct fundamental functional problems

I also stated in an earlier post that I did not feel the K20D offered enough over the K10D to justify purchasing one, and the fact that pentax has repeated / continued with mistakes that existed in earlier models just reinforces the idea that for me, even as a somewhat serious amature, I will not just whip out any money on a K20D unless I drop one of my other cameras.

04-10-2008, 07:27 AM   #20
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I remember when DL with AF-C came out Pentax made a firmware for DS that made AF-C possible in all modes. I still have hope that this attitude isn't history.
04-10-2008, 08:49 AM   #21
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Multiplier for TC factor

I see ene problem that may exist if they tried to allow the user to enter a multiplier for TC's.

AFAIK, the camera has no way of knowing if the thing mounted on the camera is a lens or a TC.

Yes, it would be easy to enter a multiplier and have the camera use that to adjust the SR focal length calculations. But what happens when you remove the TC and go back to a simple lens? The camera can not tell that the multiplier no longer applies. If you forget to reset the multiplier, now you've got the opposite problem. Remember, we're talking about lenses and TC's that relay the lens information, so its not like switching from an AF to MF lens.

This is not like the difference between a lens with aperture control, such as an A-series lens, and one without it, such a K or M-series lens. In that case, the camera can detect the difference and act accordingly.

Unless the mount or the communications protocol between the camera and lens is updated, to include the identification of a TC, I think that this will remain a problem.

So, the problem is that they can not make the solution automatic and foolproof. OTOH, if you set a EV adjustment and forget to set it back, the camera can't tell that, either. So, its not like there aren't already things you can do to mess up your exposure, that you must remember to reset.

The other solution is to make a "smart" TC, that would sense the focal length information from the lens and adjust it before relaying it to the camera.

Am I wrong? I'd like to see such a change, as much as anyone else.

I think that the only way Pentax will release a firmware update for the K10D is if they release a new lens or flash that requires it. In that case, they might update the K10D just because there is still potential for lens/flash sales to K10D owners. Right now, Pentax doesn't make any TC's. If they were to release a TC and resolve this problem, they would almost certainly update the K20D and they might update the K10D, as well, in order to sell a few more TC's.

Paul Noble, a generally happy K10D owner.
04-10-2008, 08:58 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by noblepa Quote
AFAIK, the camera has no way of knowing if the thing mounted on the camera is a lens or a TC.

Yes, it would be easy to enter a multiplier and have the camera use that to adjust the SR focal length calculations. But what happens when you remove the TC and go back to a simple lens? The camera can not tell that the multiplier no longer applies.

.... The other solution is to make a "smart" TC, that would sense the focal length information from the lens and adjust it before relaying it to the camera.

Am I wrong?
I don't know, Paul, but you make the point that has been in my mind, too: Unless the camera can sense the teleconverter automatically, then we've still got a problem.

I admit, it would be nice to have the EXIF info show the focal length as 420mm rather than 300 (or whatever). But you're right, there's a real risk that I would end up with photos whose EXIF was wrong because I forgot to change the settings in the camera back after taking the lens off. Perhaps the camera could reset automatically whenever it's turned off.

What I've been trying to do is simple: Immediately before putting the teleconverter on the camera, I take a quick photo of the teleconverter itself. I do the same thing when the TC comes off. This makes it easier for me to tag these photos in Lightroom.

But it's not quite a habit yet and I forget sometimes.

Will
04-10-2008, 09:40 AM   #23
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I'm wondering how hard it would be for a clever coder to hack the firmware to allow a simple manual override of the focal length setting. While the FA 50 f1.4 + 1.4x TC combo that I plan to use for portraits will usually be used with flash, therefore making SR somewhat superfluous, it would be nice to have the flexibility of SR for ambient light shots.

04-10-2008, 09:56 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Any firmware update adding obviously possible improved functionality to the K10D would severely hurt K20D sales. Not providing any more firmware updates to the K10D would create many more K20D sales.
Maybe short-term. Long-term, though, if we can expect the same thing to happen to the K20D in a year, this means the value proposition of each camera — even the new ones — is decreased.

If I know a camera is going to receive top-notch product support for at least as long as its warranty, that makes me more willing to spend more money on it.

I've e-mailed Pentax USA with this thought; I suggest you do the same to Pentax Germany.
04-10-2008, 04:36 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by noblepa Quote

Yes, it would be easy to enter a multiplier and have the camera use that to adjust the SR focal length calculations. But what happens when you remove the TC and go back to a simple lens? The camera can not tell that the multiplier no longer applies. If you forget to reset the multiplier, now you've got the opposite problem.
The simple solution would be an option to manually set the focal length for SR, and have the camera always reset itself to the original auto setting for SR as soon as the lens (or TC) is removed. This way you only have to remember to set the SR to manual each time you use a TC, and when that is removed to put just a lens on, the camera will be setting SR automatically again.

QuoteOriginally posted by mutley:
Any firmware update adding obviously possible improved functionality to the K10D would severely hurt K20D sales. Not providing any more firmware updates to the K10D would create many more K20D sales.
QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Maybe short-term. Long-term, though, if we can expect the same thing to happen to the K20D in a year, this means the value proposition of each camera — even the new ones — is decreased.

If I know a camera is going to receive top-notch product support for at least as long as its warranty, that makes me more willing to spend more money on it.

I've e-mailed Pentax USA with this thought; I suggest you do the same to Pentax Germany.
My comment is tongue-in-cheek, of course. I think its actually ridiculously stupid of Pentax to make such a decision. I'm in the USA as well, and have already suggested this on Ned B's blog to a completely expected lack of response, of course.
04-10-2008, 06:12 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
The simple solution would be an option to manually set the focal length for SR, and have the camera always reset itself to the original auto setting for SR as soon as the lens (or TC) is removed. This way you only have to remember to set the SR to manual each time you use a TC, and when that is removed to put just a lens on, the camera will be setting SR automatically again.
Why not just have the TC factor set back to 1 each time a lens is removed, or camera powered off. Thay way you are responsible to set the factor when you use a TC. Generally you don't switch lenses on the TC, you use it with one lens (your longest) to get even longer

QuoteQuote:
My comment is tongue-in-cheek, of course. I think its actually ridiculously stupid of Pentax to make such a decision. I'm in the USA as well, and have already suggested this on Ned B's blog to a completely expected lack of response, of course.
Perhaps, I think it would boost sales even more if pentax actually had a plan to cater to some of the wishes of its users, because that is how you keep them as users.

With respect to the point of being rediculously stupid, Forest Gump said it best "Stupid is as stupid does"

The really sad thing I think is, this issue should have been recognized with the K100D in August of 2006, I certainly raised it in Early 2007 with the K10D, they have since released the K100Dsuper, and now the K20D and K200D, so we are now 5 camera releases into the problem with no solution in sight. What people are missing with respect to EXIF data is a useless point, that is not why we want this fixed, we want this fixed so shake reduction works optimally when you most need it, with a really long lens and a TC

Other than this point, and metering on the K10D with manual lenses I am extremely happy with the camera, and its performance, but if they don't start addressing these functional issues, I can't see going for a K20D only to get a little more resolution. I have an *istD for high ISO shots when I want them, and it does admirably with those, and can meter with manual lenses on top of that.
04-10-2008, 06:16 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Maybe short-term. Long-term, though, if we can expect the same thing to happen to the K20D in a year, this means the value proposition of each camera even the new ones is decreased.

If I know a camera is going to receive top-notch product support for at least as long as its warranty, that makes me more willing to spend more money on it.

I've e-mailed Pentax USA with this thought; I suggest you do the same to Pentax Germany.
Maybe, and I have suggested this before, we all E-Mail pentax to resolve this. An e-Mail here or there will not do it,, we need to really push at them to fix this,
05-07-2008, 01:26 PM   #28
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Note that this isn't an issue for the Pentax TC's, since they're all A spec or K spec and don't transmit focal length. Pentax will no doubt address this issue when they release TC's that support the digital signal pin and focal length communication, in fact said TC's (which are likely already on the drawing board) may already be supported.

I seriously doubt that the 3rd party TC's that cause the issue in question with SR and TC's would correctly communicate their focal length multiplier in the first place, nor are these 3rd party TC's supported by Pentax.

So Pentax is not actually in the wrong here, you're asking them to support items they don't sell (AF-spec TC's which communicate focal length).
05-07-2008, 01:54 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
Note that this isn't an issue for the Pentax TC's, since they're all A spec or K spec and don't transmit focal length. Pentax will no doubt address this issue when they release TC's that support the digital signal pin and focal length communication, in fact said TC's (which are likely already on the drawing board) may already be supported.

I seriously doubt that the 3rd party TC's that cause the issue in question with SR and TC's would correctly communicate their focal length multiplier in the first place, nor are these 3rd party TC's supported by Pentax.

So Pentax is not actually in the wrong here, you're asking them to support items they don't sell (AF-spec TC's which communicate focal length).
You are right and wrong at the same time.

Pentax don't sell memory chips yet they update firmware to support bigger and bigger chips don't they?

They must understand that people will purchase lenses from other makers, afterall they liscence the mount.

As a result they have to accept that when they liscence the mount, they have to take responsibility for the aspects of the liscence that DONT work as well as the aspects that do. They should therefore update the firmware to accept teleconverters just as they have for bigger memory.
05-07-2008, 03:14 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
You are right and wrong at the same time.

Pentax don't sell memory chips yet they update firmware to support bigger and bigger chips don't they?

They must understand that people will purchase lenses from other makers, afterall they liscence the mount.

As a result they have to accept that when they liscence the mount, they have to take responsibility for the aspects of the liscence that DONT work as well as the aspects that do. They should therefore update the firmware to accept teleconverters just as they have for bigger memory.
You're mistaken in a couple of regards. First off, Pentax openly supports the SD and SDHC spec's (as well as CF on the *istD), they openly advertise their support for these specifications (and a couple of others like DNG). Thus they are commited to supporting in-spec SD and SDHC devices and providing firmware updates if their products are out of spec.

Pentax doesn't openly license the KAF2 mount, nor does Pentax claim to support 3rd party lenses. The original K mount is an open spec, KAF2 is not, beyond the bayonet mount it shares with K mount. They also do not claim that 3rd party AF lenses or teleconverters will work on their cameras (for good reason, as they don't necessarily). They have no valid reason to update the firmware to handle teleconverters that they don't sell, don't claim to support and which likely do not even communicate with the body (I've yet to see an AF TC that does any communication with the body, they simply provide a pass-through for the lens). It's up to the TC manufacturers to solve the problem, not Pentax.

AF TC's are outside the K mount spec as currently known. So Pentax cannot be expected to support such devices, especially if there's no way to know the device is present. If you're having issues with TC's I'd suggest using a KA mount TC like the excellent Pentax TC's and entering focal length manually as required.
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