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12-31-2013, 05:49 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by enoxatnep Quote
I wasn't sure which forum to put this in, so here goes ...

Anyhow, as I browsed the various flyers this past week in my part of Canada, looking at the Christmas and Boxing Day/Week sales, I saw some amazing deals on various Canon and Nikon packages, even some Sony and Olympus I believe, from compact and bridge cameras and entry-level DSLRs to top-of-the-line models. In some cases, savings were in the several hundreds of dollars. But I was struck most by the complete absence of killer deals on Pentax equipment.

My point: If I was someone interested in starting out in photography or moving up to a DSLR, why would I even remotely consider Pentax given the mass-marketing and amazing deals being heaped upon us by other brands? How can anyone wonder why the other brands mentioned have relegated Pentax to one of the smallest players in the world of photography? What possible up-front advantage would I be gaining by going with Pentax seeing how the low prices that got me hooked in the first place are now a thing of the past?

So if Pentax really wants to gain market share, I guess what I'm saying is that their marketing people need to do a serious job of aggressively promoting their products with mouth-watering deals, particularly during the Christmas season. Otherwise, they will remain a small-time player at best. More and bigger and catchy ads only go so far; people really want a crazy financial incentive if they're to ever going to be wooed from the Canikons of this world.

All I can assume at this point is that Pentax (i.e. Ricoh) either doesn't want to increase their market share or doesn't think that it will make a difference, because since I've been with Pentax this past 5 years - on a great deal of faith, mind you - little has changed in terms of the growth of the Pentax name and especially widespread equipment availability. Instead, we get ownership changes and money put into things like medium-format that is beyond the budget of all but a tiny few in the world of photography. Frankly, it's all rather pathetic, but I guess this is just one man's opinion.
To get back on thread, one probable reason is the Pentax supply chain which has yet to be sorted out by Ricoh. Suppliers not having the item advertised in stock is one thing (many list all Pentax products, regardless of whether or not they have them available) its another ordering an item and sometimes finding out too late that not only are you going to have to wait for it but the company have absolutely no knowledge of when it will be available, and apparently neither do Pentax. I am still waiting after a month for a lens hood for my 18-135 WR zoom (got at a good price in "non-original packaging"), despite being assured by twice by the company that it would come with one before ordering, and there after within an acceptable time scale after its non arrival. The other day it was fully confirmed (as I suspected it might a couple of weeks earlier) that they had no reallly no idea when it will arrive. To be fair they are not the only photographic outlet that have I found to be in that position, but at least I have been made aware of the situation before placing my order. I am currently not a happy bunny, as in inclement (today) or very sunny weather every little helps to keep to keep rain, sand or sun etc. off the front of a lens.

12-31-2013, 12:50 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well to be honest, I wouldn't either. I even have a black K-01 and a black Q.

But that doesn't mean other people shouldn't have colors if they want them (and I'm not sure it is fair to label it a women's demographic - I think an awful lot of men here were really excited by the Stormtrooper cameras).
Oh, sure, some people (of either gender) undoubtedly love the colors. Just not my cuppa, thanks. When I was researching and shopping, the Tiger Direct store here actually had a red K-x in the store (sealed in the box, I was not to even think about touching the box -- let alone the camera! -- until it was 100% paid-for. Now I wasn't the least interested in a K-x (let alone a red one), but I would have liked to handle the camera a bit. No dice. They wouldn't even unlock the display cabinet.
12-31-2013, 01:02 PM   #63
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@jatrax ... no worries, no apology necessary . I did wonder who the "four women" might be, as I know there are a lot more than four female members of the forum, but it's no big deal. And I do agree with you, generally, about marketing.
12-31-2013, 04:42 PM   #64
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I'd have totally bought a blue camera if they had one & it was the same price.

12-31-2013, 06:04 PM   #65
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Only two reasons: a very bad marketing and no FF!
12-31-2013, 06:22 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Only two reasons: a very bad marketing and no FF!
Now there is a number I would like to see! What percentage of canikon sales are actually FF compared to consumer aps-c sales!!
12-31-2013, 07:23 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Joel B Quote
Now there is a number I would like to see! What percentage of canikon sales are actually FF compared to consumer aps-c sales!!
I don't know about Worldwide sales, but this thread links to the Japanese sales market % for 2013. Short version? 91.3% APS-C, 8.7% FF, of all DSLR cameras. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/6-pentax-dslr-discussion/246999-best-sell...an-2013-a.html
Now, if only Canon and Nikon were calculated, the FF % would probably be higher.
But it still begs the question; Viewing all DSLR sales numbers, is full frame a worthwhile market entry for Pentax? Considering the R + D, start-up, lens and accessory development and current market positioning, I'd say 'No'.
YMMV,
Ron
12-31-2013, 07:42 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by rbefly Quote
But it still begs the question; Viewing all DSLR sales numbers, is full frame a worthwhile market entry for Pentax?
If you take the emotion out of this and ask: "Would you spend a ton of R&D money to enter a small market niche that already has two giants in it trying to kill each other?" I think too many people really WANT a Pentax FF and try to justify it being a good idea for Ricoh in order to get their wish. I've nothing against FF, might even buy one myself, but from a strict business perspective that niche with two giants in it sounds a little too scary to me. If I was Ricoh I would rather exploit other areas that might turn out to be more profitable with less risk.

12-31-2013, 08:02 PM   #69
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Thanks for the info Ron. If I was looking at those numbers, it would be hard for me to justify the effort and expense. Smart bet would be to continue to produce battle ready aps-c at good solid pricing! I had someone hold my k100D and they were taken by how compact but solid it felt. Granted it is an older model but I do believe the new models still have the same build. Let me know if I'm wrong! By the way he is looking to get one!!
12-31-2013, 08:28 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
to enter a small market niche
It is not so small anymore, I think. Pentax tried to do it long time ago despite it was a really niche market then with "giants" there. Pentax has entered into medium format market nevertheless.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
spend a ton of R&D money
Is it really "a ton"? Pentax has released a camera that pretends to be the best APS-C DSLR a couple months ago and had experience with MF camera.

Maybe the third reason is interior problems in Ricoh photo department.
12-31-2013, 09:02 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
It is not so small anymore, I think.
According to the numbers quoted above FF is 8.7% of dslr market. Of which Pentax has about 5% depending on whose numbers you use. So I make it about 4 tenths of a percent of the dslr market assuming Pentax brings out a successful FF. That sounds pretty small to me.
QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Pentax tried to do it long time ago despite it was a really niche market then with "giants" there.
News to me, when was this? AFAIK Pentax has never had a FF dslr.
QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Pentax has entered into medium format market nevertheless.
Which happens to be a small niche without much competition at least at the price points they are at. Not exactly the same as FF 35mm.
QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Is it really "a ton"?
Well since none of us really knows much of anything and anyone who does know anything is not going to talk, yeah I maintain it is a "ton". Actually I think it would be more like two "tons" but that's just my opinion.
QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Maybe the third reason is interior problems in Ricoh photo department.
Maybe the reason is that they just don't think it is economically feasible?

Like I said, if you look at this without emotion it really makes no economic sense to divert resources into an area that is not a big market and has two well entrenched residents already fighting over the spoils. That does not mean it won't happen or even that it is a bad idea. Sometimes you have to do things strategically that do not make sense tactically. So it is possible that introducing a FF camera, while a total money loser, brings in enough prestige or market recognition that from a strategic viewpoint it makes sense.

And sometimes you just plug along turning out what you do best and try not to get distracted by things that take you away from your core market.

Personally I think we will get a FF in 2014, along with a couple very nice FF lenses. I really, really hope it is a huge success because if it isn't I also predict Pentax will exit the FF market and never return. JMHO
12-31-2013, 09:08 PM   #72
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Fact of the matter is this. Look at every single possible photo comparison (PHOTOS only - sensor ratings are irrelevant, don't bother) between the Pentax 645 and any professional FF at 400 ISO or under (which is the real comparison worth considering when you are talking truly high-grade images for demanding application). The Pentax is far and way ahead (as is Phase One and the others in MF). But Pentax does have an advantage over the other MF players, if you think about the legacy FF angle. Pentax could find a slightly novel device to take advantage of its unique position with just a bit of creative thinking (yes, you could take the sensor and enable auto FF crop capability with minimal R&D and retooling). This is the quickest, least expensive and best possible way to best the dominant FF players - but no, that just isn't in the cards. Way too innovative for the Ricoh poo-bahs. Hey, but Ricoh would feel too much pressure if it actually re-entered the professional market in a serious competitive way.
12-31-2013, 09:16 PM   #73
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I'm not saying I think Pentax needs a HUGE North American shelf presence. I don't think they can supply/support Walmart/Sam's/Costco. But I do think a modest "special purchase" offering next Thanksgiving/Black Friday/Christmas season at Best Buy & Target is a reasonable, achievable goal.
12-31-2013, 10:50 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
According to the numbers quoted above FF is 8.7% of dslr market. Of which Pentax has about 5% depending on whose numbers you use. So I make it about 4 tenths of a percent of the dslr market assuming Pentax brings out a successful FF. That sounds pretty small to me.
News to me, when was this? AFAIK Pentax has never had a FF dslr.

Which happens to be a small niche without much competition at least at the price points they are at. Not exactly the same as FF 35mm.

Well since none of us really knows much of anything and anyone who does know anything is not going to talk, yeah I maintain it is a "ton". Actually I think it would be more like two "tons" but that's just my opinion.

Maybe the reason is that they just don't think it is economically feasible?

Like I said, if you look at this without emotion it really makes no economic sense to divert resources into an area that is not a big market and has two well entrenched residents already fighting over the spoils. That does not mean it won't happen or even that it is a bad idea. Sometimes you have to do things strategically that do not make sense tactically. So it is possible that introducing a FF camera, while a total money loser, brings in enough prestige or market recognition that from a strategic viewpoint it makes sense.

And sometimes you just plug along turning out what you do best and try not to get distracted by things that take you away from your core market.

Personally I think we will get a FF in 2014, along with a couple very nice FF lenses. I really, really hope it is a huge success because if it isn't I also predict Pentax will exit the FF market and never return. JMHO
They had in 2000.
MZ-D


The point of a FF for Pentax would be to give an upgrade path to potential customers, as in "oh and if you want to upgrade to full frame eventually, you can!", and for prestige reasons. Sales wouldn't be that great, but it may move more APS-C cameras.


To me the Pentax FF would have built in SR (still and video), it would have the smallest and lightest body while still being fully sealed. That could help sell it. Maybe add Cinema DNG video, pixel binning, perhaps 4K support. At that point it would become a serious tool for photographers and videographers.
12-31-2013, 11:46 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
They had in 2000.
MZ-D


The point of a FF for Pentax would be to give an upgrade path to potential customers, as in "oh and if you want to upgrade to full frame eventually, you can!", and for prestige reasons. Sales wouldn't be that great, but it may move more APS-C cameras.


To me the Pentax FF would have built in SR (still and video), it would have the smallest and lightest body while still being fully sealed. That could help sell it. Maybe add Cinema DNG video, pixel binning, perhaps 4K support. At that point it would become a serious tool for photographers and videographers.
Actually, they never released the MZ-D. The sensor was too noisy. Contax went ahead and it put them out of business. Eventually it (effectively) also put Pentax out of business.

At what price would you propose to sell your described FF camera?
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