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12-30-2013, 04:51 AM   #1
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SR on K5 vs newer models? Please help.

In my opinion the K5 (the original one) has a little bug in it's SR implementation. I wonder if the never cameras has the same behavior.

So could someone with at never camera (K30, K50, K5II or K3) please do the following simple test and report back.

Turn on the camera, make sure SR is on, and with the camera in hand look through the viewfinder. Half tap the shutter button (do not hold it down), wait for the SR hand icon to lit up, move the camera (more then the SR can coupe with) and the hand icon turns off, hold still and it lights up again within a second. That is the correct behavior and I know the K10 and the K5 does this.

Now do the same thing but with the shutter button half pressed. The K5 lights up the SR icon and it stays lit no matter how you twist and turn as long as the shutter button is half pressed. This is not right (no shake reductions system can possible work while twisting and turning like crazy). The k10 turns off the icon (just as the k5 if you only tap the shutter button) and reinitialize when you hold still.

So how does the newer versions work when halfpressed? Do the SR icon stay lit?

12-30-2013, 08:10 AM   #2
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The light just means it is ready, it doesn't mean it is guaranteeing a shake free shot. My K100D doesn't turn off the light in that situation either.
12-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #3
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I have a K-r, K-30, Q10 and K-3. The K-r behaves like what you describe for the K-5 (indicator stays on) while the other three all behave like what you described for the K10, the indicator goes off as soon as there is an abrupt motion.

The status of whether the SR was actually locked or not during the shot is also indicated in the EXIF of the K-30 and seems accurate, probably also on the others but I haven;t checked.

I did notice however that the K-r does actually get better results than the K-30 when panning with SR enabled, so there may be some ;'truth' to the SR lock indication while panning. The downside of the K-r is that it is appears less capable than the K-30 when using SR on stationary subjects (not panning). In any case I do still use SR effectively with panning with the K-30, but it needs much more attention to get it right - in particular you have to start tracking the movement with the shutter half pressed for at least a few seconds before releasing the shutter, so it is good for things like aeroplanes or perhaps even cars at some distance where the motion is constant and sustained. Not so though for most other moving subjects that don;t have such constant motion.

I don't yet have enough experience with the K-3 panning with SR activated so cannot tell how well or not it works, however given that by its own 'admission' it is indicating loss of SR lock even with relatively gradual movements it is likely not as good as the K-r in that respect. It actually seems to lose lock more easily than the K-30 (at least by what the indicator shows). The stabilisation for stationary subjects is however significantly better than any of the other three cameras - I found it quite amazing actually, shooting 135mm at 1/30s and even 500mm at 1/100 and getting sharp images almost every time.
12-30-2013, 12:14 PM   #4
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Ok, thanks.

So it seems they have corrected this behavior in the later models. One wonder why they haven't fixed this for the K5 (and K-r) in one of the firmware updates.

The SR icon both fools the user and itself in thinking that it's ready as long as you half press the shutter button no matter how you swing the camera. If you then fire suddenly the SR-system is confused and can actually ruin the shot. This does not happen with the K10 or the newer models as they automatically turns off SR if they aren't ready.

12-30-2013, 12:39 PM   #5
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Two points:
1. My K20d acts (wrongly?) as you say the K5 does.
2. If you swing the camera a lot--it should be the initial acceleration--either linear or angular motion--that the SR must correct. It is not clear that waving it around is any tougher than the motion when you move it slightly!
12-31-2013, 02:48 AM   #6
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The SR-system first has to get a general idea of what the user is trying to do.
If you are aiming at a fixed target for a second before firing, the system will assume that any deviation from that fixed point should be counteracted upon. So if you start panning the SR will first try to counteract that motion until it hits the wall and gives up.

If you are panning steadily the SR will try to continue that panning action, so if you suddenly stop and fire, the SR will try to continue the panning motion until it hits the wall and gives up, shot will be blurred.

If you are seeking the target by panning around all over the place the correct behavior is (IMHO) as the K10 and the newer cameras do, shut off SR until it figures out what you are trying to do. Not like K5 K20 and K-r, use SR last 0.7seconds mean motion and apply that to whatever you are doing now, EVEN if the last 0.8 seconds involve large movements such as lifting the camera to eye level and fire.
12-31-2013, 03:40 AM   #7
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When checking my K10 an K7 the SR icon is on all the time when the shutter button is half pressed, and it turns off immediately when I remove my finger.

I think K-5 was changed so the SR is activated as long as light meter is active, not only when shutter button is half or fully pressed like on earlier cameras.
12-31-2013, 06:19 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
When checking my K10 an K7 the SR icon is on all the time when the shutter button is half pressed, and it turns off immediately when I remove my finger.
But if you move the K10 to much the icon goes out, even with the button half pressed.
Indicating that it have to reinitialize due to excessive movements, which it does about a second later if you stop moving. At least that is how I recall it.

Don't know how the K7 works though.

12-31-2013, 06:39 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
But if you move the K10 to much the icon goes out, even with the button half pressed.
Indicating that it have to reinitialize due to excessive movements, which it does about a second later if you stop moving. At least that is how I recall it.
Mine K10 does not do that. The only way of turning off the SR indicator once on is to let go of shutter button. I can even hear the sensor bumping around in K10 when shaking.

I beleive all DSLR (with SR) before K-5 behave the same.

Last edited by Fogel70; 12-31-2013 at 06:46 AM.
12-31-2013, 06:48 AM   #10
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Really? I will have to check my own K10 whenever I get home, which will not be until later next year
12-31-2013, 07:25 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote

The SR icon both fools the user and itself in thinking that it's ready as long as you half press the shutter button no matter how you swing the camera. If you then fire suddenly the SR-system is confused and can actually ruin the shot. .
I think the bug is in your logic. Why are you swinging the camera during a shot? The symbol only means it is activated, not that it can compensate for wild movement.

Last edited by SpecialK; 01-07-2014 at 10:04 PM.
12-31-2013, 07:33 AM   #12
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I don't believe the description--basically that the SR knows your panning--is right. It's not a gyroscope! Steady panning (after the initial start of the panning) involves no changes in velocity (neither speed nor direction) and thus [the sensor] senses nothing and should make no correction.

If you stop panning it registers this as an acceleration (opposite to the prior panning direction) and should make the correction--which in this case may be the right (you meant to continue the panning) or wrong (you meant to stop panning) correction.

(Note, I don't use SR under such condition--so my discussion is based on the physics of the problem.)
12-31-2013, 07:41 AM   #13
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Actually panning normal is done by angular rotation (you can jerk the camera but that motion cannot be held steady or for any length of time), so there is an acceleration, and thus likely some correction, but it does not alter my argument--changing the panning is a new (changed) acceleration.
12-31-2013, 08:06 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
I don't believe the description--basically that the SR knows your panning--is right. It's not a gyroscope! Steady panning (after the initial start of the panning) involves no changes in velocity (neither speed nor direction) and thus [the sensor] senses nothing and should make no correction.

If you stop panning it registers this as an acceleration (opposite to the prior panning direction) and should make the correction--which in this case may be the right (you meant to continue the panning) or wrong (you meant to stop panning) correction.

(Note, I don't use SR under such condition--so my discussion is based on the physics of the problem.)
I know, all that the SR system care about is that the values from the accelerometers are within a certain value. It doesn't matter if I'm standing still and aiming at a fixed point or traveling/panning at a steady speed. I'ts all relative.

The problem is when these values are exceeded, a sudden stop or acceleration that is to large to compensate. For instance suddenly changing target from one person to another and directly pressing the shutter button without giving SR time to adapt in the new direction.

The K10 (as I recall it) would turn off SR when the acceleration values where exceeded, and then needing another 0.7 seconds of "steady" aim before enabling again. If I shoot before the 0.7 seconds had passed the shoot would be done with SR off. No additional blur added.

The K5 on the other hand will not shut off SR under the same circumstances and would "ruin" the shot by adding blur since the past 0.7 seconds involved a lot of acceleration.
01-06-2014, 10:41 AM   #15
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I now tested my own K10 and as Fogel70 said, it's just as stupid as the K5. That MUST have changed in some of the firmware upgrades as I'm 100% sure that was not the original behavior.

This is a change for the worse in my opinion. Now the hand lights up indicating SR is ready no matter what, the only criteria is that you half press the shutter button and wait 0.7 seconds. Then you can go completely bananas with the camera but SR is still ready, yeah right.
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