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04-21-2008, 04:30 PM   #16
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douglas: i think they are what you might call linear motors on which the sensor lies, designed for low amplitudes and rather high freqeuncies. rather neat stuff, from a tech point of view. i think there might be some pictures of it on the net, and am pretty sure there must be a patent available also.

lloydy: hard to tell, at that size. all this:
rally-sprint
is with sr on, with the 50-200 (mostly in the 80-135 range) but if you look at 1/1, hardly any of them is pin-sharp

04-21-2008, 04:42 PM   #17
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However, you can only expect to get sharp pictures of an object if it is stable in the vertical when panning horizontally. A car in a rally going over bumps is not exactly like on a flat course. The SR is only effective for camera shake, not subject movement (forgive me if I state the obvious).
04-21-2008, 04:51 PM   #18
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My experience shows that SR is no good for panning. I have similar results with less than 1% sharp with SR on. I would say keep it off. I think the manual says to have it off too, but I couldn't find it when I just looked in the k20 manual.
04-21-2008, 05:31 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
i think i will head to the highway before the next rally, and do some tests, see what i can figure out.
Please report back your results.

04-22-2008, 04:14 PM   #20
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that's a crop from my other picture, and the side window area is as sharp as I would expect given the situation.
The focus dies off some towards the other side of the vehicle, but that's more to do with depth of field.

At the moment I'm not arguing for or against turning the shake control off when panning ( this is with it on ) but I am interested to see the outcome of this topic as it progresses.
04-22-2008, 04:40 PM   #21
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Lloydy, your two rally car photos suggest a couple improvements in the service of sharpness:

1) use a faster shutter speed, even if that means increasing ISO (I assume that you would want a given depth of field, so leave aperture set to give what you want, and balance the exposure between shutter speed and ISO).

2) practice, practice, practice your panning technique! Percentage of sharp "keepers" usually increases proportionally with the number of shoots and shots using this technique.

Also, avoid caffeine before your shoots, and try SR versus non-SR to see which works best for you. Have fun, and good luck!
04-23-2008, 07:06 AM   #22
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Good practice opportunity

My experience with SR and panning is hit and miss. As I practice more, I'm having better luck with it off. However, in light challenged situations I'll still play with it. Practice is key, as is knowing the limitations of SR.
I've been practicing my motorsports shooting at the local model car track. Some of the weekly meets draw over 100 entries and they run all day, so you can get as much "practice" as you care. If you can follow these and nail over 20% of your shots you are doing well:


You'd be surprised how many will pay for good shots of their model cars.

RC Pro Series Omaha Qualifying - a set on Flickr
04-23-2008, 11:12 AM   #23
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Here is a cropped shot where SR was on, and am I imagining things here, or are the blurred people in the background double faced?



04-23-2008, 02:49 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by christinelandon Quote
Lloydy, your two rally car photos suggest a couple improvements in the service of sharpness:

1) use a faster shutter speed, even if that means increasing ISO (I assume that you would want a given depth of field, so leave aperture set to give what you want, and balance the exposure between shutter speed and ISO).

Yes, I really need to think about it a bit more, I do tend to point and shoot. Also, I'm so used to using low ISO's from my film days, and being tied into the ISO of that particular roll of film.
I need to experiment with the TAv setting a bit more.


2) practice, practice, practice your panning technique! Percentage of sharp "keepers" usually increases proportionally with the number of shoots and shots using this technique.

Also, avoid caffeine before your shoots, and try SR versus non-SR to see which works best for you. Have fun, and good luck!
A lot of the shots I take are between me driving, so adreniline is adding to my copious caffeine intake
05-05-2008, 11:49 AM   #25
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okay, so it seems my plans of testing are down the drain: when i get off work it's already peak hour, which means a lot of cars, going very slow mostly (i should know, i am driving one of them). so it turns out the test was finaly done at he rally :/

c.kr

(to whom it may concern; again, all suggestions are wellcome, ratings as well)

the jury is still not out, but at this point, it seems: 1. there's nothing wrong with the af, it can handle rally shooting just _fine_ (no more excuses for me), car coming at me or moving away from me: NO problem, but if i have to pan (when af is easier, but my handyness is more important), the shit hits the fan.. 2. shake reduction doesn't seem to help, sometimes it does more harm, i think because it doesn't have enough time to kick in, and by using the af button, which now i do exclusively especially for af-c, it's even worse, _maybe_ it can help a lot, if i could get it to work continously, and manage to follow the car without jerking the camera too much, still have to work on that and see how it goes, but the simple and quick conclusion for me right now: turn the sr off to be sure

so the short answer is: it's the panning, stupid. i had the same problems with my former nikon d50, so no suprise here... the knack here is: panning is not only needed for 1/90s shutter speeds, for bluring the wheels and stuff, i doubt you can get away without it without anything better than 1/2000 or so, depending on situation (speed, angle, and so on).

so regarding the af in my k10d (samsung gx10), i am hard pressed to ask for anything more, to be honest. it also focused in some light conditions where i could barely see myself (and i have comparatively good night vision), this was also true for concert shooting (except when using the smc-m 50/1.4, where i was pretty much on my own).

overall, i have a great sports shooting machine on my hands (i never shoot burst, for reasons i have explained elsewhere), i know most wise people disagree, i'm sorry, it's what i found (so far) . my skill is the only limiting factor so far (and i _am_ sorry to say that )
05-05-2008, 12:11 PM   #26
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If I were intending to pan I'd just turn it off !
05-05-2008, 12:41 PM   #27
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gimbal: that's interesting, maybe some weird combination of the shutter travel and your panning movement (but i can't work out at this time of night how that would work, iirc the pentaxes have vertical travel shutters, as they should), what were the light sources there? anything "strobbie"? (like neons and such, maybe?), it does look like natural light, though. it might also be "the bokeh" /me ducks

lloydy: sharp: no it's not. ask for more . maybe i can find some lucky shot to show what i mean, _but_ i do agree that, hit-rate included, that's pretty sharp (depending on how big oyu want to print, ofcourse). also, i am not sure what your aperture was there, but i doubt such a shallow dof under those conditions, the focus gradually disapearing has more to do with the paning itself than with the dof, most of the time (hint: the car's various parts only move at (roughly) the same speed in the real world, within your frame, depending on your angle and so on, they will not all move at the same speed, thus it is hard to get all the car sharp if you want serious motion blur, no matter how well you pan. the only notable exception is when you move on the same trajectory as the car, and a relative, though not as "perfect" exception is when you are paning from the center of the car's trajectory curve -- which ususally gives a rather boring angle, of which i got sick of rather quickly, but ymmv)
05-21-2009, 02:56 PM   #28
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The K100D manual mentions panning as a possible source for shake reduction not working. The reason being that while panning you may cause the SR system to exceed its functional range. Hence, as long as you are panning real steadily, SR will be able to add to the sharpness, but, I guess rather easily, you may just stress it too much and the subsequent attempts to get back on track again will do more harm to the image than good (the only way to avoid it would be to cause shutter lag until the sensor is repositioned, which I believe is not done).

At least that's my interpretation of the short manual entry (in the "Troubleshooting") section, based on my understanding of how SR works. It seems to explain why SR appears to be a mixed bag in panning applications.

QuoteOriginally posted by JasonS Quote
I've been practicing my motorsports shooting at the local model car track.
Great shot!!!
05-23-2009, 08:49 AM   #29
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It really looks like SR is not a problem with panning.

Here I had SR on and initially thought that maybe the exposure was too long (1/90s for 115mm) but if it would be shorter, the background would not be blurred that much...

Truely just "point-and-shoot" picture without any preparation.

Last edited by tim71; 05-23-2009 at 09:32 AM.
05-23-2009, 10:46 AM   #30
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FWIW, some of the best BIF shots I've ever seen were taken with SR *on*. And I never remember to turn it off myself and I've done about as well as I could reasonably expect given my limited experience. Which is of course not proof of anything, but it does suggest that if SR is detrimental while panning, it can't be *too* bad.
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