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01-24-2007, 06:16 PM   #1
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Another K10 problem :(

my camera or flash?

here are 2 pictures of my wifes k100 and my k10 firing the flash the pop up on camera flash in a mirror. both are auto modes.
both fire, but the k100 seems to fire as fast as the shutter. the k10 sounds like it has a very slight delay
all batteries fully charged as well

pardon the dirt

K10



K100



huge difference! not only this, but my sigma 500 super works better on the k100 then my k10. flash zoom works with her camera, not mine.

K10, flash, or both?

please help!!

01-24-2007, 08:52 PM   #2
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is it fireing to late or just to low pwered..?? in a mirror either might produce the same effect..

trog
01-24-2007, 09:11 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
is it fireing to late or just to low pwered..?? in a mirror either might produce the same effect..

trog
Hi and thanks for responding
fireing too late as in the shutter? it seems like when the shutter opens it catches the tail end of the flash.
I don't think it is low powered.... I the flash set at normal... program mode automatic.
seems that the k10 is having problems with the sigma 500 super as well.... the flash zoom function doesn't work and at this point the k10 isn't firing the 500 super either.

everything works well with the K100 though

any other ideas?
this is really bothering me, especially not knowing if it is the flash(s) or the K10

thanks

randy
01-24-2007, 10:32 PM   #4
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You're aware that both are functioning in P-TTL mode: a preflash that you can see in the viewfinder before the mirror rises. This sets the exposure parameters. Then a main flash when the mirror rises and the shutter opens.

I have a K100, it seems slower than any of our K10s. The flash 'pair' is distinctive and clearly has a break on the K100. It's much faster on the K10; seems like it almost overlaps. This double flash take a considerable amount of adjustment on the part of the operator-it's much different from normal TTL.

Grab up some small knick-nacks or the kids toy soldiers or blocks or even several stuffed animals. Put them on a table top and practice. A remote release and a tripod will help you see the flash as you can compose and focus then move to the side and watch. The K10 AF/AE sensors are big and very sensitive; keep this in mind.

The mirror thing doesn't work too well, especially when it's dusty--yes we know about dust, much of the spring in NM our rain is blowing dust not water.

Let us know how things work out as you figure-out if it's just a new situation or an actual problem.

01-24-2007, 10:49 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
You're aware that both are functioning in P-TTL mode: a preflash that you can see in the viewfinder before the mirror rises. This sets the exposure parameters. Then a main flash when the mirror rises and the shutter opens.
Forgive me if I seem very slow. I'm just breaking this down to how I understand your explanation of P-TTL correctly.

The P-TTL preflash fires. In this case to a mirror. The camera picks up the exposure and "thinks" that it is overexposing (because of the reflection), so when the real flash goes off with the shutter, the real flash is REALLY turned down (almost no power) to prevent what the camera thought is overexposure?

Thanks!

Last edited by Alvin; 01-24-2007 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Forgot my manners :P
01-24-2007, 10:57 PM   #6
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Exactly. {characters to fill space}
01-24-2007, 11:53 PM   #7
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Here is a couple of shots I took into a mirror.

Onboard then Sigma DG 500 Super.
Attached Images
   
01-25-2007, 05:00 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
You're aware that both are functioning in P-TTL mode: a preflash that you can see in the viewfinder before the mirror rises. This sets the exposure parameters. Then a main flash when the mirror rises and the shutter opens.

I have a K100, it seems slower than any of our K10s. The flash 'pair' is distinctive and clearly has a break on the K100. It's much faster on the K10; seems like it almost overlaps. This double flash take a considerable amount of adjustment on the part of the operator-it's much different from normal TTL.

Grab up some small knick-nacks or the kids toy soldiers or blocks or even several stuffed animals. Put them on a table top and practice. A remote release and a tripod will help you see the flash as you can compose and focus then move to the side and watch. The K10 AF/AE sensors are big and very sensitive; keep this in mind.

The mirror thing doesn't work too well, especially when it's dusty--yes we know about dust, much of the spring in NM our rain is blowing dust not water.

Let us know how things work out as you figure-out if it's just a new situation or an actual problem.

thank you very much for the answer.
so the K100 doesn't have P-TTL?
so if I find out that the pop up flash is in sync, then if the sigma 500 super works great on my wife's K100 and doesn't work well on my K10, which would be the culprit?

I hope that I don't get stuck in the middle..... sigma telling me it is the camera, and pentax telling me since it is not a pentax flash it must be the flash unit

randy

01-25-2007, 06:21 AM   #9
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"so the K100 doesn't have P-TTL?"

it does have P-TTL..

this might seem a silly question but does your onboard flash work correctly when u are not pointing at mirrors.. ??

plus whilst knowing the sigma flash works okay with a k100 (i have the standard version) i am not sure it does with the k10.. someone that has one should be able conform this thow..

i think u have a problem (fault) with your k10 to be honest..

trog
01-25-2007, 07:27 AM   #10
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Trog got it right-PTTL on BOTH.

Randy, I think you might be a little tightly wrapped about this issue-as a fellow forum user and (believe this or not) a friend, take a step back, center yourself, have a cool drink. Believe me when I say this very same thing gave me a headache and much anxiety too.

I think you are between chip evolutions with the Sigma flash. Sigma doesn't know the mind of Pentax; they are re-engineering to get the flash function. I think they might be 3rd or 4th evolution on the K100 mechanism (most functions mapped and copied) and only 1st or 2nd evolution on the K10 functionality (basic functionality and one or two extras are working) . And they had to marry both functionalities in the same flash---all very complicated stuff.

If you had the Sigma flash re-chipped or not doesn't matter. They have two timelines which are at different evolutions and all the problems have not been addressed. I think your mirror shot identifies and accentuates the situation. The reality is you may need to send the flash back to sigma in a couple months to have it re-re-chipped.

I wouldn't compare functionality as you have done-it's a chase your own tail scenario. Work out how the flash works with one camera, then what it does with the other; but don't compare--especially at intermediate steps in the process; they are not likely to match well anyway.

There is a lot of hysteria with the release of the K10-it's complicated and has a steep learning curve. It's different from older technology in several significant ways-the flash is a big one. Try my simple step by step, plodding, way of set one thing, shoot, evaluate, make a small change and repeat. I've learned a lot-some of it is wonderful, some stuff gives me pause.
01-25-2007, 10:07 AM   #11
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I'm not really sure what the point is with these images. Camera settings would be a big help as would flash settings.

On the other hand here are some of my results with external slaves and PC corded flash.

With the onboard flash or an external Pentax flash, optical slaves will probably fire with either the auto-focus assist flashes or the pre-flash to the PTTL. When external flash triggers during the PTTL preflash it plays ugly games with the exposure--usually causing a several stop under-exposure--black frame with only specular highlights showing.

The Wein safe sync is indeed safe--it completely isolates the external flash from the camera and no flash occurs. Any mode, any shutter speed. Apparently the Pentax hotshoe does not use the rail as an electrical connection except to provide a common ground (perhaps).

An Edit: Wein device doesn';t work on K1000, PZ1p, ZX-M, or ZX-10. A simple non isolating PC to hotshoe connector does work---odd.

Last edited by jfdavis58; 01-25-2007 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Additional Info
01-25-2007, 11:25 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Trog got it right-PTTL on BOTH.

Randy, I think you might be a little tightly wrapped about this issue-as a fellow forum user and (believe this or not) a friend, take a step back, center yourself, have a cool drink. Believe me when I say this very same thing gave me a headache and much anxiety too.

I think you are between chip evolutions with the Sigma flash. Sigma doesn't know the mind of Pentax; they are re-engineering to get the flash function. I think they might be 3rd or 4th evolution on the K100 mechanism (most functions mapped and copied) and only 1st or 2nd evolution on the K10 functionality (basic functionality and one or two extras are working) . And they had to marry both functionalities in the same flash---all very complicated stuff.

If you had the Sigma flash re-chipped or not doesn't matter. They have two timelines which are at different evolutions and all the problems have not been addressed. I think your mirror shot identifies and accentuates the situation. The reality is you may need to send the flash back to sigma in a couple months to have it re-re-chipped.

I wouldn't compare functionality as you have done-it's a chase your own tail scenario. Work out how the flash works with one camera, then what it does with the other; but don't compare--especially at intermediate steps in the process; they are not likely to match well anyway.

There is a lot of hysteria with the release of the K10-it's complicated and has a steep learning curve. It's different from older technology in several significant ways-the flash is a big one. Try my simple step by step, plodding, way of set one thing, shoot, evaluate, make a small change and repeat. I've learned a lot-some of it is wonderful, some stuff gives me pause.
thank you so much, JF!

so I got up this morning, and decided to give the pop up a whirl. seems to be working fine with your suggestion of shooting objects around the house... I chose ones in darker corners as well. the exposure wasn't real consistant, but nothing PP can't handle. I will try tonight as there won't be as much ambient light in the room to compare.

the other thing that happened too...... I put on the sigma, fired it up and everything works (to my knowledge) even the flash zoom!
yesterday I took the flash off, put it on and tried many times and nothing. today so far, it works fine. strange that is for sure.
I was wondering since I had the pop up flash set at remote to fire the other pocket flash that it got stuck in remote even though I changed it back to regular flash?
but that would account for the zoom on the super 500 not working up until now. (didn't work properly even before the firmware upgrade to the K10)
or could it have been the ORDER I put the flash on.... meaning this time I had the camera on, then put the super 500 on the mount, then turned the super 500 on after?
right now the flash zoom even matches the focal length of the lens, it has never done this before either.

boy, I am glad that it is working for now.
a half decent night sleep helped (kind of like your sit back and relax suggestion

I can't find any good reference sites on how to use the sigma super that are easier to understand then the manual, so I can't say if the flash is totally working on my K10 though.

thanks again for yours, and everyone else's help.
I am not experienced enough to pay back yet..... but I have a few photoshop skills that I can repay with.... just don't be afraid to ask


cheers and thanks again

randy
01-25-2007, 12:36 PM   #13
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i have noted that at times the sigma flash dosnt work on my k100.. i am reasonably certain its connected with the sequence things are connected up.. whether camera or flash is switched on first for example.. there are several combinations.. some appear to cause the camera and flash not to communicate properly with each other..

i am not sure which combination works as regards switching things on or connecting up but i am sure some cause the camera not to see the flash or the other way around..

the flash zoom is a good way to make sure the two things are talking to each properly i think.. if the flash zoom dosnt work they are not talking..

trog
01-25-2007, 01:59 PM   #14
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These Might Help

QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
i have noted that at times the sigma flash dosnt work on my k100.. i am reasonably certain its connected with the sequence things are connected up.. whether camera or flash is switched on first for example.. there are several combinations.. some appear to cause the camera and flash not to communicate properly with each other..

i am not sure which combination works as regards switching things on or connecting up but i am sure some cause the camera not to see the flash or the other way around..

the flash zoom is a good way to make sure the two things are talking to each properly i think.. if the flash zoom dosnt work they are not talking..

trog
With my 500 Super, I always power everything down, then mount the flash (making sure it is properly aligned in the shoe and tightened securely, more on this later), then power up the camera, and lastly power up the flash.

If I do not follow this sequence, the flash can get stuck in all sorts of strange modes, from full power to locked up. This has been true on my DS bodies as well, so I do not think it is necessarily related to the K100 or the K10, although both were not 100% compatible with the 500, as most know.

Also, I have found that although the 500 is a very tight squeeze into the hot shoe, it can back out just a bit, especially after I have been bouncing or rotating the flash or both. When it is just a tiny bit off the contacts in the shoe, it also will act oddly, sometimes flashing at high power and sometimes locking up.

I hate the auto power down "feature" on the Sigma flash, and have also had to power everything down and bring it all back up as described above to get it to work correctly after it has powered itself down due to inactivity. You are supposed to be able to half-press the shutter button to bring the flash back to life, but I have found that this does not always work, or if it does, the flash is stuck in some odd mode.

Hope this helps.

Ray
01-25-2007, 02:51 PM   #15
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"With my 500 Super, I always power everything down, then mount the flash (making sure it is properly aligned in the shoe and tightened securely, more on this later), then power up the camera, and lastly power up the flash."

that sounds like a sensible sequence.. everything off.. mount flash on camera.. power on camera first.. wait a couple of seconds.. then power on the flash..

trog
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