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04-24-2009, 06:35 PM   #31
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I doubt whether the K10 could do those at 1600 - though i could be wrong

04-24-2009, 07:42 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by MSM Quote
@Pentaxpoke: Thanks for the iso test. I have a K10d and I find that I can't get any usable shots at iso 400 or above. I am so glad that you took the time to post. It may just be my specific camera, but my images with iso ~400 look like your tests shots somewhere beteen 1600-3200. My needs are not as great as many here. I just would love to be able to shoot at iso 800 rarely and 400 occasionally. Thanks again.
You're kidding................right?
My K100DS does great at iso 800, you might have something amiss.
04-25-2009, 02:02 AM   #33
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Same here - nothing too much wrong with 800
04-25-2009, 11:05 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raybo Quote
You're kidding................right?
My K100DS does great at iso 800, you might have something amiss.
QuoteOriginally posted by Squier Quote
Same here - nothing too much wrong with 800

Thanks guys. I certainly won't say that it isn't my fault. But, when I load my RAW images with 400 and certainly 800 ISO they look like Pentaxpoke's 1600-3200. Perhaps it is my camera. I knew I needed a new camera.

Just curious, when you say that you get great images at ISO 800, are you talking about after you run your images through say Noise Ninja or the like? That would be a big difference. I only have the NR in camera but I shoot RAW. (I can't remember if the NR is being applied to my RAW images).

Also, are you looking at small prints or 100% on the monitor. Not that I am such a pixel peeper, but this thread started out by saying the 20D is capable of some excellent cleaner images at high iso (persumably without the aid of an external NR software). Looking at the original files on the site, I just don't see the level of noise I see from my K10d especially in the shadow areas.

If I am missing anything, let me know. I am contemplating an upgrade mostly for the higher ISO capabilities. You could save me a lot of cash!!

Thanks

04-25-2009, 11:32 AM   #35
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whats all the big whoop about high iso? 90% of most peoples photos are low iso... where the pentax k20d's cmos outperforms everything. bar none.
04-25-2009, 11:38 AM   #36
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I would say high ISO would be is useful for long Tele shots of Birds, especially if on the move where one would need fast shutter speed.

Most of us have to settle for long Teles with slow wide Aps and hence a slow shutter speed. High ISO is a way of speeding up that slow shutter speed.

Juts my 2pence of course
04-25-2009, 12:21 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
whats all the big whoop about high iso? 90% of most peoples photos are low iso... where the pentax k20d's cmos outperforms everything. bar none.
Actually, I thought the conventional wisdom is that the 10MP Sony sensor is the best in the Pentax lineup for low ISO? And the K20D had had more shadow noise at low ISO than other cameras?

Anyhow, while no doubt true that "most" shots by "most" people are low ISO, it's not true for some of us. I just did a quick check, and of my "keepers" for this year thus far, over 60% are at ISO 1600! (786 out of 1279). And ISO 800 and above accounts for over 75%! That's because I shoot more concerts and indoor candids than anything else, and I very rarely use flash.

And really, if you're not planning on shooting at high ISO much, "most" people are just as well if not better off with a P&S camera. So I would say that high ISO performance is probably disproportionately important for DSLR customers - for "many" (although probably not "most"), it is their main reason for considering a DSLR in the first place.

But nonetheless, I do agree that the importance of high ISO performance is often overstated when it comes to choosing between cameras. As are the differences between DSLR's in this respect.
04-25-2009, 12:28 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by MSM Quote
Thanks guys. I certainly won't say that it isn't my fault. But, when I load my RAW images with 400 and certainly 800 ISO they look like Pentaxpoke's 1600-3200. Perhaps it is my camera.
Were you going out of your way to "expose to the right" (Google it if you are unfamiliar with the idea) as he has in many of his shots? Generally speaking, that requires positive exposure compensation and is impractical in many of the situations where one might *want* high ISO - ie, to get fast enough shutter speeds to combat blur. Also, some of the shots involved shutter speeds so slow that "dark frame subtraction" would have kicked in to reduce noise. The K20D won't look as good in more conventionally exposed - or underexposed pictures, too. But it will still be better than the K10D.

QuoteQuote:
Just curious, when you say that you get great images at ISO 800, are you talking about after you run your images through say Noise Ninja or the like? That would be a big difference. I only have the NR in camera but I shoot RAW. (I can't remember if the NR is being applied to my RAW images).
As far as I know, it is not. You'd need to apply some in your PP. The K20D, on the other hand, supposedly *does* apply NR (whether you ask for it or not) at ISO's above 1600 or thereabouts.

But you shouldn't need any sort of third party program like Noise Ninja to get decently clean images. Pretty all RAW processing programs give you NR controls.

QuoteQuote:
If I am missing anything, let me know. I am contemplating an upgrade mostly for the higher ISO capabilities. You could save me a lot of cash!!
There is no doubt that the K20D performs better at higher ISO than the K10D. But the best looking samples are produced by "exposing to the right". You'll get better results on your K10D if you do that, too, but you might find it impractical in many real world situations. Meaning if you did spring for the K20D, you *still* wouldn't be seeing images like the best of the samples you've seen. But sure, you'd notice improvement.


Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 04-25-2009 at 12:35 PM.
04-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Incorrect. I shoot RAW/manual exclusively on my K20D. Last night I did a 200 second exposure at night and the NR kicked in for an additional 200 seconds. This is one of the least desirable shortcomings of the K20D and Pentax has been barraged with requests to allow a menu choice for the user to turn off the NR entirely in the next firmware upgrade.

Jack
I just ordered my K20 last night, so what do i know :-)

Could it be that there are 2 different NR systems to be used. The weakest, weak, strong NR is software smearing type stuff, but what you are talking about, the mandatory one is the double negative subtraction (not sure that is the right term), where a second blank screen is subtracted from the image to get rid of thermal noise and hot pixels. That kicks in at times longer than 1 sec. To delete the thermal noise and hot pixels by subtraction would not reduce the image quality in any way, i would think this should be done in a mandatory way. Except for those folks who are extremely time limited. I suspect that Pentax doesn't want hot pixel cameras returned for warranty repairs :-)
04-26-2009, 11:57 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
whats all the big whoop about high iso? 90% of most peoples photos are low iso... where the pentax k20d's cmos outperforms everything. bar none.
Easy answer for my needs: dimmer conditions for my wildlife photography requires higher ISO...

QuoteOriginally posted by Squier Quote
I would say high ISO would be is useful for long Tele shots of Birds, especially if on the move where one would need fast shutter speed.

Most of us have to settle for long Teles with slow wide Aps and hence a slow shutter speed. High ISO is a way of speeding up that slow shutter speed.
Well stated!

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Actually, I thought the conventional wisdom is that the 10MP Sony sensor is the best in the Pentax lineup for low ISO? And the K20D had had more shadow noise at low ISO than other cameras?

Anyhow, while no doubt true that "most" shots by "most" people are low ISO, it's not true for some of us. I just did a quick check, and of my "keepers" for this year thus far, over 60% are at ISO 1600! (786 out of 1279). And ISO 800 and above accounts for over 75%! That's because I shoot more concerts and indoor candids than anything else, and I very rarely use flash.

And really, if you're not planning on shooting at high ISO much, "most" people are just as well if not better off with a P&S camera. So I would say that high ISO performance is probably disproportionately important for DSLR customers - for "many" (although probably not "most"), it is their main reason for considering a DSLR in the first place.

But nonetheless, I do agree that the importance of high ISO performance is often overstated when it comes to choosing between cameras. As are the differences between DSLR's in this respect.
Marc, I agree with your comment about the 10MP sensor from Sony - my findings are that it seems to be more consistent at low ISO values, especially with shadow noise. It's by far my favorite in low ISO situations for macro and landscape work.

However, with higher ISO (over 800) I prefer the K20D. That's why I like both cameras for specific reasons. (I've stated that before of course.)

Regards,
Marc
04-26-2009, 12:10 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by MSM Quote
Thanks guys. I certainly won't say that it isn't my fault. But, when I load my RAW images with 400 and certainly 800 ISO they look like Pentaxpoke's 1600-3200. Perhaps it is my camera. I knew I needed a new camera.

Just curious, when you say that you get great images at ISO 800, are you talking about after you run your images through say Noise Ninja or the like? That would be a big difference. I only have the NR in camera but I shoot RAW. (I can't remember if the NR is being applied to my RAW images).
Mark: one option for the K10D at higher ISO's is to overexpose slightly a dimmer light situation (assuming no flash) at EV +0.3 to reduce the noise levels, assuming your shutter speeds are good enough to permit it.

Try it and let us know what you think...


Raybo: I am not sure if this was noticed but your K100DS is a 6.1MP sensor and therefore it's strong suit is cleaner high ISO than the 10.2MP sensor. If you caught that he is using a K10D then my apologies.

Cheers,
Marc
04-26-2009, 09:41 PM   #42
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QuoteQuote:
Werticus: whats all the big whoop about high iso? 90% of most peoples photos are low iso... where the pentax k20d's cmos outperforms everything. bar none.
There is genuine need for high ISO from where I sit, though I agree many people can do fine without it.

For example, anytime you want good DOF and have a moving subject--for this, you must have good high ISO performance. Panning is not always an option, I shoot flowers sometimes and the wind can be compensated for with fast shutter speeds, but only with high ISO.

Also, obviously anyone shooting action sports, especially when paired with a long tele, will need high ISO. It is simply a matter of taste sometimes. Sure you can shoot at wider apertures and get the shot, but for some of us depth of field is needed at times. Whenever you are shooting in f8 or 9 range, and want fast shutters, even if you have lots of sun, you are still forced to use high ISO.
04-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #43
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QuoteQuote:
Philbaum: To delete the thermal noise and hot pixels by subtraction would not reduce the image quality in any way, i would think this should be done in a mandatory way. Except for those folks who are extremely time limited. I suspect that Pentax doesn't want hot pixel cameras returned for warranty repairs :-)
I agree, %100! I often shoot landscapes in the light-sheltered woods with small apertures. This can mean, even on a bright day, I am shooting shutter speeds in 1 to 3 second range--often. Later in the day, I am shooting speeds in excess of 4 seconds.

I love the dark-frame subtraction since it preserves maximum IQ for these circumstances. I think Pentax should be applauded for the performance of this tool, as well as for making it mandatory. I understand, particularly in Astro-photography in bulb mode, this can mean having patience.

But then this is a hobby for most of us, not a job we are rushing to finish. I really have no problems at all with the DFS. I think it is simply another case of high expectations, combined with nitpicking and an ungrateful consumer.

Face it, the Pentax cameras represent incredible value and performance. Do any of us really want a camera which is so incredibly good that it composes, AFs, selects ISO/shutterspeed/aperture for us in under a tenth of a second--PERFECTLY with EVERY SHOT---all the while reading our minds and not requiring us to even touch the camera?

The work required to get great shots is what makes it art. Isn't that why we are all here with a DSLR? We can always go back to our P & S--someday, perhaps driven by the ever-ungrateful consumer's need to whine, even the Pointing and Shooting will be obsolete.

A thought: If all ISO settings performed as well as ISO 100, then there would only be a need for one ISO setting. It is, in fact, the different performances of the varying ISOs which makes shooting even more of an art.
04-27-2009, 02:28 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Were you going out of your way to "expose to the right" (Google it if you are unfamiliar with the idea) as he has in many of his shots? Generally speaking, that requires positive exposure compensation and is impractical in many of the situations where one might *want* high ISO - ie, to get fast enough shutter speeds to combat blur. Also, some of the shots involved shutter speeds so slow that "dark frame subtraction" would have kicked in to reduce noise. The K20D won't look as good in more conventionally exposed - or underexposed pictures, too. But it will still be better than the K10D.

Thanks. I will give it a try. As you noted, it can be difficult because I am often raising the ISO because the shutter speeds are too low for me. Trying to ETTR would definitely slow the shutter even more. Please correct me if I miss understood.



As far as I know, it is not. You'd need to apply some in your PP.
AH. This may be the problem. I have been shooting Raw and perhaps I am seeing no noise reduction. Though, often I delete the images in -camera that are too noisy or blurry. Shouldn't the JPEG shown with the Raw file have NR?

But you shouldn't need any sort of third party program like Noise Ninja to get decently clean images. Pretty all RAW processing programs give you NR controls.



There is no doubt that the K20D performs better at higher ISO than the K10D. But the best looking samples are produced by "exposing to the right". You'll get better results on your K10D if you do that, too, but you might find it impractical in many real world situations. Meaning if you did spring for the K20D, you *still* wouldn't be seeing images like the best of the samples you've seen. But sure, you'd notice improvement.
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Langille Quote
Mark: one option for the K10D at higher ISO's is to overexpose slightly a dimmer light situation (assuming no flash) at EV +0.3 to reduce the noise levels, assuming your shutter speeds are good enough to permit it.

Try it and let us know what you think...
Cheers,
Marc
I will give it a go.
Thanks to Both Marc's!
04-27-2009, 08:02 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Langille Quote

Try it and let us know what you think...

Cheers,
Marc
Ok. I tried. I must say that it worked nice. I know you can't say much with the small picture size. But, I took this today with a Super Tak 50 mm/1.4. ISO 800. 1/180 (f4 I think) PP in Aperture without NR.
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Thanks for your help. You guys are the best.
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