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05-10-2008, 02:16 AM   #16
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I have always been under the impression that no matter the camera using sensors that there will be a low hot pixel percentage even from brand new. When I bought my ist DL I was a member of DPR, This topic of hot pixels came up in the D, DL, DS, So I took mine over to a friend who could map the sensor and found out out of 6.1 meg a pixels I had 53 in my camera. They never showed up in print or on a monitor. So I never thought much more about it. I have since taken both my cameras DL of 4 years and the K100D to the same shop and had them again map the sensor. The DL now has 78 hot or dead pixels and the K100d has 23 hot or dead pixels. None of which has ever shown up in any mode or format.
Instead of looking for trouble like RH and so many others on DPR (I don't think for one min. these guys have ever taken a picture without blowing a mole hill into a mountain) Just take the pictures and If something like this keeps on showing up then your camera may have a problem but nothing that mapping the sensor won't fix. If it is a defective sensor and if the camera is under warranty then get Pentax to replace the Dam thing and go back to happily shooting pictures.

All camera manufactures have the same 0.2-3.0 percentage of hot pixel acceptance from brand new. So all you purists suck it up and UN bunch your panties and start shooting and quit your complaints over something that is warranty and can be corrected.

Oh and Rice High PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

05-10-2008, 02:18 AM   #17
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Rice High here is your big opportunity - you are the master measurebater are you not? Then get hold of one of these dreaded K20D's and prove that this problem exists, seems pretty simple to me.

I don't know if this is a real problem or not, but I will be holding off buying a K20D and any more K mount lenses till this problem is disproved. If it is true then Pentax is sunk and it will be very unlikely there will be any upgrade model coming out. The K20D is far too expensive to have such a major fault - if it does indeed exist at all.

I too think that DPR has been quite underhanded and unprofessional about the way they handled this. They would have surely known that the rumour mill would have spread this supposed problem accross the globe in a matter of hours (and of course RH would take great delight posting this "Factual" info on his/her blog) and it will affect sales - as I have just proven.

In my opinion they should have put out the review with the supposed problem and allowed Pentax to determine if a problem does indeed exist and to fix it if need be as I am sure consumers would have demanded for such a wide spread problem.

Instead DPR have ensured that a non factual rumour campaign is waged against the Pentax Brand - very nasty in my opinion and very un professional.
05-10-2008, 02:25 AM   #18
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Missing thread?

So where has a whole thread which I was enjoying and had contributed to, along with other comments and images, suddenly gone to.
I have only just joined this Forum, which has a byline'
"Friendly Pentax Discussion Community" ???
05-10-2008, 02:52 AM   #19
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Sergei, it is incredibly rare for a thread to be closed or deleted here (maybe 3-4 times in my memory). But it can sometimes happen when a thread gets flaming hot or there is incorrect (or unsubstantiated) information being posted.

RH is famous for discovering "flaws" in Pentax equipment. He lives for that. He'll say he is trying to 'help' Pentax get better but he really has an agenda to tear the brand apart. I don't trust anyone with an agenda forced on anyone. Whether it's a politician, scientist or a fool with a blog and a keyboard. I think Chris was correct to put everything all in one thread and see if this is just a rumour (I'm sure it is) or an issue.

New or potential buyers believe this stuff when they read it. If he or anyone else can prove the claim, then fine, post the scientific proof. Not some half baked rumour with no backup testing.

05-10-2008, 03:27 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
If you have a K20D with said problem please post in this thread a Jpeg straight from the camera with proof of hot pixels so we can look into it. BTW, EXIF data must be intact in order to make sure everything is on the up and up.
JPEG from camera can't prove anything. It's better to shoot picture in RAW and convert it to some lossless format using DCRAW.
QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
So far I tested all 5 K20D's we have in the store and no hot pixels, had friends and costumers email me jpegs and nothing. My tally is officially 14 no hot pixel cameras and the likely hood DPR got two of them in a row is looking slimmer and slimmer.
If you're shooting in JPEG or using PPL to develop PEF files, you will probably not see any hot pixels, even on camera which produces a lot of hot pixels.
05-10-2008, 04:29 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by LDevil Quote
JPEG from camera can't prove anything. It's better to shoot picture in RAW and convert it to some lossless format using DCRAW.
If you're shooting in JPEG or using PPL to develop PEF files, you will probably not see any hot pixels, even on camera which produces a lot of hot pixels.
Prove what?

If this so called problem exists only in these conditions and we know that every sensor has certain number of hot pixels, where is the problem? If we cant see it in our real life pictures using normal work flow, I cant see any problem either. Hot air.

I don't convert my pictures using Dcraw to lossless format, I use some more photographer friendly software (Silkypix) and convert them to tiff:s and jpeg:s for real use. If this problem is not visible in my work flow, what a damn problem it is?
05-10-2008, 04:37 AM   #22
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Chris

Good Idea, one thread, lets all take a breath here and think about what is being said.

Falcons, I expect a fellow Perthite to have a little more faith.

So far
Fact: Some badly Hot Pixelled images from ONE camera has been posted on a Polish Website.
Fact: DPR Reviewers have stated that are having a similar issue with the cameras (TWO) that they have used for testing in the review of the K20D
Fact: Only 4 users have reported hot pixels in their camera on the Pentax Forums Poll, None have posted any images to substantiate the claim yet.
Fact: Go the to Polish review or go the Poll thread and view the hot pixels, they are REAL.
Fact: One person has posted on DPR that he can create the Hot Pixels at will by the manner in which he takes his pictures.
Fact: This perosn has not posted any pictures and has one Post at DPR to his name, smells like a troll?.
Rumour: The K20D Samsung manufactured CMOS sensor has issues with hot pixels and therefore the camera is not good/should be recalled etc etc.

Conclusion:
We have seen photos from ONE camera, we have allegations of others, so far, no more than 6 out of thousands of K20Ds.

The demostrated Hot Pixels are intense and very easy to see, it would RUIN any picture you took with it. We are not talking about 1 or 2 pixels, we are talking hundreds. If this was more than just an isolated problem with a few cameras and I mean a few, then we would have seen examples posted on the web long before this.

Lets disperse the mob and let the dust settle before we start cancelling our orders for K20Ds.

Lets stop creating rumour and speculation and stick to facts. One set of photos from ONE camera PROVEN and Posted o nthe web to have Hot Pixels on the Planet Earth!!!

Lastly, RH, don't try to make facts from spurious comments from other people that can't be verified, in the policing world we call this Hearsay and Innuendo, it carries no weight and clouds the issue. I have seen thousands of photos from the K20D Hot Pixel Free and so have you and everyone else onthe forum. And only two from the polish website with Hot Pixels.

PK
05-10-2008, 04:58 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Sergei, it is incredibly rare for a thread to be closed or deleted here (maybe 3-4 times in my memory). But it can sometimes happen when a thread gets flaming hot or there is incorrect (or unsubstantiated) information being posted.
Thanks for the assurance Peter,

I am only a three week old Pentax user, after shooting Nikon for 40 yrs, still retain 2 DSLR bodies, so do not wish to get embroiled in brand religious wars and don't know of the mount specific "Characters" who lurk and flame the heated outburts.

I embraced the K20D for very specific needs and reasons, and am very happy that I made the decision.

I think that anyone should be able to express an opinion on a discussion Forum, as long as they don't resort to personal attacks, and modirators should moderate their own response more, rather than censoring, and emposing personal bias. Just my 2c. Hope I've come to the right place.

BTW like your quote from Karsh, was trying to remember Karsh the other day, when directing a student to research great portrait artists.

05-10-2008, 05:05 AM   #24
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Guys,
Here is another hint: you can't disable "noise reduction" (read: black frame subtraction) completely on K20D! It kicks in whenever *it* feels necessary. IMO that's not an overlook, it's a strategic decision to combat poor sensor design. So what Pentax could do? Reveal the "true" picture with random hot pixels and admit the failure of K20D as a camera? Don't kill me guys...

My K10D has hot pixels too, but they are static and I mapped them out!
05-10-2008, 05:21 AM   #25
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It is a real pity that newcomers don't realise the history of Ricehigh and his years (yes years) of constant Pentax Brand Bashing through initially his very amateurish tests which have now evolved (or devolved) to his blog of today that is created by trawling the net for nuggets of Anti Pentax sentiment to proudly proclaim as fact. Gone are the days of his bizarre measurebating activities.

If you go back to his early days on DPR if anyone dared to disagree with his bizarre test results, Ricehigh would pull out the race card and start writing in very broken English and ranting on about anti chinese sentiments.

Now as you have seen his written English is first rate and the whole act is very polished and call me a conspiracy nut if you like - I believe Ricehigh is nothing more than a fictional character created by a PR firm. This whole Ricehigh thing is far to polished and clinical in how it operates.

Why would anyone spend so much time trawling the net for anti pentax threads and then creating a whole blog about it - maybe in the short term but for years on end.

I just don't believe any one individual can donate this much time, especially with a fulltime career (engineering I think) and a young family to support.

Nor do I believe any individual can sustain such hatred of a camera brand (of all things) for such a length of time.
05-10-2008, 05:32 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by tdb Quote
Guys,
Here is another hint: you can't disable "noise reduction" (read: black frame subtraction) completely on K20D! It kicks in whenever *it* feels necessary. IMO that's not an overlook, it's a strategic decision to combat poor sensor design. So what Pentax could do? Reveal the "true" picture with random hot pixels and admit the failure of K20D as a camera? Don't kill me guys...

My K10D has hot pixels too, but they are static and I mapped them out!
I'm not a sensor expert, but I think you'll find that *all* digital sensors, on all devices, do a lot of noise reduction and processing BEFORE anything is sent anywhere. There is no way around that.

There is no true RAW file. Look at the Sony sensor on their Alphas, its actually reviewed as having notable amounts of noise reduction in the raw files. Are the Sony sensors "poor sensor design?"

And Ricehigh, your thread got deleted because it was about the third or fourth thread on the SAME topic, that brought nothing new except a bunch of links to your blog, which has no original infomation on it. You can offer your opinion here or in the other threads.
05-10-2008, 05:32 AM   #27
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Don't hold back Falcons, ......let it all out
05-10-2008, 06:08 AM   #28
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Thanks for all the input guys... I'm still waiting for a picture though
05-10-2008, 06:19 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
And Ricehigh, your thread got deleted because it was about the third or fourth thread on the SAME topic, that brought nothing new except a bunch of links to your blog, which has no original infomation on it. You can offer your opinion here or in the other threads.
A bunch of links to my blog? I copied and pasted my latest blog article again and make it as a new post! If you think you can say anything that is not true NOW just because my post / thread has been deleted, you'll surely be wrong.

Repeated topic needed to be deleted? Third or fourth thread? Are these really true and always applied?? Or, only on my threads?? - JUST because of the "unfavourable" contents I shared???

I have pointed to a picture posted by a K20D end-user for a hot pixel picture and his story for sending back to Pentax Japan for repair, and, two users in a single post at another Pentax forum reported and confirmed that their K20D units had hot pixels. What else "new information" do you really want before a thread should/could be deleted owing to *any* EXCUSES??
05-10-2008, 06:19 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by tdb Quote
Guys,
Here is another hint: you can't disable "noise reduction" (read: black frame subtraction) completely on K20D! It kicks in whenever *it* feels necessary. IMO that's not an overlook, it's a strategic decision to combat poor sensor design. So what Pentax could do? Reveal the "true" picture with random hot pixels and admit the failure of K20D as a camera? Don't kill me guys...

My K10D has hot pixels too, but they are static and I mapped them out!
hot pixels ar of 2 general types static and dynamic.
Only the static type (which by the way WILL INCREASE over time, sensors start to wear. My D went from 2 or 3 static to literally dozens after a few years. Short reminder that was a Sony 6mp sensor).
Dynamic ones are brought on by mostly heat/exposure times. Thus the need for the Dark frame subtraction at long exposures.
No sensor is immune from this issue..... sensors for long exposures in astrophotography are cooled by Peliers at the least and things like liquid nitrogen at best.. for GOOD reason...
K3's Astronomy Home Page
Your K10 has dynamic hot pixels. Just shut NR off and take a series of times exposures w/ lens cap on.
Use software like this:
StarZen Technologies, Inc; DataFlex tools and books
and you will find from one set to another that the number and position change.
AS to DPREVIW, I'm beginning to suspect they were bored and just wanted to "poke the hornets nest" so to speak...
There announcement and even further responses were too vague to do anything but cause wild speculation. Yellow journalism at it's finest..
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