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05-09-2008, 11:16 PM   #1
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To all concerned with K20D/Hot Pixel Issue

Until there is hard proof of this being a true problem, which as of right now it's not, let's not have 50 million threads on the same stupid subject.

If you have a K20D with said problem please post in this thread a Jpeg straight from the camera with proof of hot pixels so we can look into it. BTW, EXIF data must be intact in order to make sure everything is on the up and up.

So far I tested all 5 K20D's we have in the store and no hot pixels, had friends and costumers email me jpegs and nothing. My tally is officially 14 no hot pixel cameras and the likely hood DPR got two of them in a row is looking slimmer and slimmer.

So if you have proof show it and I don't care if you have a blog saying it's true, we are looking for proof to either make a case about it or drop it at that.

05-09-2008, 11:18 PM   #2
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Good idea codiac. What are we looking for if we have "hot pixels?"
05-09-2008, 11:24 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Good idea codiac. What are we looking for if we have "hot pixels?"
Basically snap a shot of something dark and check at 100% for out of the ordinary pure white or dis-colored pixels. Longer exposures tend to help since they push pixels to a higher temperature. It's super simple and takes like 10 seconds to check. Make sure you shoot Jpeg in camera because most RAW converters remove hot pixels, which makes it a total non-issue.

I really feel this is another DPR making an issue out of nothing. I've lost all faith in their reviews since they don't print images, they just look at them on monitors which never tells you the quality of the camera and the images it takes.
05-09-2008, 11:36 PM   #4
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codiac,

The thing is that you don't specifically try those pixels to appear. Most likely in normal shooting conditions they don't appear.

DPReview simply are looking for problems. They are measurbating, torturing camera and measurbating again. And oh, look, hot pixels. They hinted that they got pixels after LiveView use. That's very understandable. During LiveView sensor heats up and chances that hot pixels appear increases very much.

Nikon D300 also have exactly the same problem (Nikon D300 Review by Thom Hogan), however DPReview didn't bother to mention it in their review.

Now it seems, they are preparing ground for another not so favourable review: K10D had "soft jpegs" (although soft D300 jpegs were OK), K20D will have "hot pixels issue"...

05-09-2008, 11:39 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Basically snap a shot of something dark and check at 100% for out of the ordinary pure white or dis-colored pixels. Longer exposures tend to help since they push pixels to a higher temperature. It's super simple and takes like 10 seconds to check. Make sure you shoot Jpeg in camera because most RAW converters remove hot pixels, which makes it a total non-issue.
K20D jpeg processor removes hotpixels, you won't find hot pixels in jpegs. They have found hot pixels in RAW.
05-09-2008, 11:41 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
codiac,

The thing is that you don't specifically try those pixels to appear. Most likely in normal shooting conditions they don't appear.

DPReview simply are looking for problems. They are measurbating, torturing camera and measurbating again. And oh, look, hot pixels. They hinted that they got pixels after LiveView use. That's very understandable. During LiveView sensor heats up and chances that hot pixels appear increases very much.

Nikon D300 also have exactly the same problem (Nikon D300 Review by Thom Hogan), however DPReview didn't bother to mention it in their review.

Now it seems, they are preparing ground for another not so favourable review: K10D had "soft jpegs" (although soft D300 jpegs were OK), K20D will have "hot pixels issue"...
And this is why I have this exact thread. I want you guys to prove me wrong and DPR right. Please, show me your K20D having hot pixel issues. I have 14 that say it doesn't right now that I got to look at.

Why sit here and let people say we have issues. If we can prove we don't have them DPR looses another notch in credibility.

So please, if you have a K20D with a hot pixel please post it right here so we can all see it. I'll even send it directly to Ned Bunnell and my new Sales rep so they can be aware of each camera that is having issues, if there are any at all.
05-09-2008, 11:42 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
K20D jpeg processor removes hotpixels, you won't find hot pixels in jpegs. They have found hot pixels in RAW.
How'd they find it in RAW? Converters take it out automatically????? Now this is really getting fishy...
05-09-2008, 11:48 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
How'd they find it in RAW? Converters take it out automatically????? Now this is really getting fishy...
DPR are known to use ACR for their RAW conversions. ACR removes hot pixels. However they didn't say how exactly they got hot pixels, they just hinted LiveView use.
Polish site which first reported about hot pixels are using dcraw for RAW conversions. Appearently dcraw doesn't remove hot pixels. Did DPR changed their RAW converter just for the purpose of getting those "hot pixels"?

05-10-2008, 12:01 AM   #9
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Do you believe DPR is really making it up?

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Basically snap a shot of something dark and check at 100% for out of the ordinary pure white or dis-colored pixels. Longer exposures tend to help since they push pixels to a higher temperature. It's super simple and takes like 10 seconds to check. Make sure you shoot Jpeg in camera because most RAW converters remove hot pixels, which makes it a total non-issue.

I really feel this is another DPR making an issue out of nothing. I've lost all faith in their reviews since they don't print images, they just look at them on monitors which never tells you the quality of the camera and the images it takes.

Hey Chris, I find I either strongly agree or disagree with you... not a lot of middle ground. And usually it is agree. But here I am confused.

Have I misunderstood the issue? I thought it was looking like a 'live view' issue. Which of course could be related to temperature too, but not the same way long exposures are. In long exposures the cameras do a Dark frame subtraction to deal with hot pixels for the increased sensor temps. In a live view mode, isn't the sensor is always on? But the pics you take may be at very fast shutterspeed and not subjected to DFS. So if the sensor is getting too hot during live view that may be what is happening. So just taking long exposure test shots will do little if it is a live view issue.

But where I disagree is about DPR
About them making an issue out of nothing. If they have two copies experiencing some issues, how is that nothing? Do you honestly think they are making it up?
Can you link me to other instances where they made something up of nothing? My experience only goes back a few years, but I think the times they have sent cameras back to mfgr's in the middle of a review there were real problems that did exist.

As far as DPR only looking at monitors and not printing the images. Do you really want to bring all the variables of printers/inks/paper into the mix? The complex cameras of today have enough variables for them to address IMO.
I am as confused as anyone as to what they are seeing, that the majority of K20 owners here are not. But I don't think they are making it up.

Maybe I am reading you wrong here... Which I have be guilty of in the past.
If so, my apologies and feel free to fire away...
05-10-2008, 12:09 AM   #10
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Abuse

Chris, it is really very sad to see you abuse your moderator's power again to make "negative" threads or posts, which you dislike personally (not even to say just disagreed) disappeared or locked.

Why you need to delete my thread about the hot pixel topic for what the DPR, the Polish K20D test review and two other users at another Pentax forum reported?

I do believe at *any* *forum*, IF you have your *point* and *views*, just raise it and discuss. It is totally uncivilised and rude to delete others' posts and then shout out for your *own* *opinion*. JUST because you're now a "moderator"??

I shall raise this case to Adam to see if he agrees with that you can and should "moderate" his (our) forum in this way.

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Until there is hard proof of this being a true problem, which as of right now it's not, let's not have 50 million threads on the same stupid subject.

If you have a K20D with said problem please post in this thread a Jpeg straight from the camera with proof of hot pixels so we can look into it. BTW, EXIF data must be intact in order to make sure everything is on the up and up.

So far I tested all 5 K20D's we have in the store and no hot pixels, had friends and costumers email me jpegs and nothing. My tally is officially 14 no hot pixel cameras and the likely hood DPR got two of them in a row is looking slimmer and slimmer.

So if you have proof show it and I don't care if you have a blog saying it's true, we are looking for proof to either make a case about it or drop it at that.

Last edited by RiceHigh; 05-10-2008 at 12:20 AM.
05-10-2008, 12:14 AM   #11
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I'm so glad for the ignore list. I can just imagine what the post above mine says.
05-10-2008, 12:19 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
Hey Chris, I find I either strongly agree or disagree with you... not a lot of middle ground. And usually it is agree. But here I am confused.

Have I misunderstood the issue? I thought it was looking like a 'live view' issue. Which of course could be related to temperature too, but not the same way long exposures are. In long exposures the cameras do a Dark frame subtraction to deal with hot pixels for the increased sensor temps. In a live view mode, isn't the sensor is always on? But the pics you take may be at very fast shutterspeed and not subjected to DFS. So if the sensor is getting too hot during live view that may be what is happening. So just taking long exposure test shots will do little if it is a live view issue.

But where I disagree is about DPR
About them making an issue out of nothing. If they have two copies experiencing some issues, how is that nothing? Do you honestly think they are making it up?
Can you link me to other instances where they made something up of nothing? My experience only goes back a few years, but I think the times they have sent cameras back to mfgr's in the middle of a review there were real problems that did exist.

As far as DPR only looking at monitors and not printing the images. Do you really want to bring all the variables of printers/inks/paper into the mix? The complex cameras of today have enough variables for them to address IMO.
I am as confused as anyone as to what they are seeing, that the majority of K20 owners here are not. But I don't think they are making it up.

Maybe I am reading you wrong here... Which I have be guilty of in the past.
If so, my apologies and feel free to fire away...
Well I've tried the work cameras in Live and it never showed up, tried mine and nothing and have shots from a day I used the Live View A LOT and nothing.

DPR and myself have never sat well since in a few of their reviews the images were not what they said and I've brought it up and have left it alone since then. Basically they claimed their images have no tweaking, but all the Canon images have color adjustments in RAW and then in some shots sharpness is added in ACR so I do have lots of trust issues with them. Not to mention som Penatx images not being RAW as the exif clearly shows they are peg from camera. I don't see them bringing up the fact the XSi has focus issues and took forever to bring up the fact the 1D MKIII had focus issues and never brought up the leaning viewfinder which Canon called our store to ask customers we sold to make sure they didn't have said issue. But a Pentax camera has an issue no one has experienced but a Polish camera website and they post that they have 2 bodies with the same issue. I'm just looking for people to prove me wrong because I'll send it to the right channels and have it looked into.
05-10-2008, 12:22 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Chris, it is really very sad to see you abuse your moderator's power again to make "negative" threads or posts, which you dislike personally (not even to say just disagreed) disappeared or locked.

Why you need to delete my thread about the hot pixel topic for what the DPR, the Polish K20D test review and two other users at another Pentax forum reported?

I do believe at *any* *forum*, IF you have your *point* and *views*, just raise it and discuss. It is totally uncivilised and rude to delete others' posts and then shout out for your *own* *opinion*. JUST because you're now a "moderator"??

I shall raise this case to Adam to see if he agrees with that you can and should moderate his (our) forum in this way.
Hmmm, I never deleted it RH... so what are you talking about? Maybe write about it on your blog.

You again claimed that this "problem" is fact without any proof. This thread is to find said proof so we can fix the problem. We truly don't need muck tossed around until the "issue" is found to be true.

Please bring it up with Adam, he knows exactly what has been done and why. I'm looking for answers is all and not more garbage from a bad blog with a poor mindset behind it.
05-10-2008, 12:35 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Hmmm, I never deleted it RH... so what are you talking about? Maybe write about it on your blog.
My opened thread disappeared at the same time with your new sticky thread. What a co-incidence!

QuoteQuote:
You again claimed that this "problem" is fact without any proof.
The fact is that the Polish K20D and the DPR reviewers found and reported the hot pixels issue, plus another two K20D end-users too. WHY all of them needed to say so if it is not true? I don't think that they are lying afterall. Note also that DPR has already got two production copies of the K20D whilst the Polish review site had got 3.

QuoteQuote:
Please bring it up with Adam, he knows exactly what has been done and why. I'm looking for answers is all and not more garbage from a bad blog with a poor mindset behind it.
Here you go again - inhuman and uncivilised personal attack!
05-10-2008, 01:42 AM   #15
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HA HA HA HA I F%$#@*&G Love it!!!!

Rice High you just go take your soother and your case to Adam. I'm sure he'll rule in your favour over Chris, a respected member of this forum who actually owns a K20D and shoots real pictures with it. Be careful, whine enough and you might just get yourself deleted.


As far as the issue goes, I think this is all DPR hot air and I'm still ordering a new camera next week.

Chris, I still use Silkypix and the Pentax Browser. Does it correct for hot pixels?

Btw. I sold electronics for 10 years and every manufacturer in the business said that they were happy with 0.002 -0.003% pixel failure in sensor devices and display devices. I defy anyone to find a similar device with 6 or 10 or 14.2 million pixels and not find one or 2 defective ones somewhere in there. This is just life and deal with it.

Edit Opps sorry I just reread this post and realized I had entered the wrong % amounts for dead/hot pixels. The correct numbers are now posted. (about 20 per million was the threshold that most manufacturers claimed to stay under).

Last edited by Peter Zack; 05-10-2008 at 02:37 AM. Reason: Incorrect data
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