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08-31-2014, 01:14 PM   #46
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There is some gear bashing on other forums - can't speak to the volume of it compared to Pentax.

Found this today on the dpreview Nikon SLR FX forum:

QuoteQuote:
I think Nikon is throwing darts to see which one hits the bullseye.
Bingo. They don't really seem to have a solid strategy behind it. While I understand the need for sales, I fear Nikon is not understanding why some products aren't/didn't sell. The D700--one of their most popular cameras ever--and they didn't replace it. No D300 replacement. Oh, you want everyone to move to FX--which, BTW, you're about about 6-8 years past the point where FX was all the buzz. So you offer them a retro FX--great, if you're into retro, but useless if you're not. And a cheap/flawed low-end camera? So you can sell superzooms and a few f1.8 primes?

Finally the D750 looks like it's going to be a D700 replacement. But they could--and should--have done it 2+ years ago with one of the two versions of the D800 instead of two versions of the same camera that were virtually indistinguishable from each other. (Oh, yeah, they finally figured that out with the D810...) It is as if they are still smarting from the D2h/x (IQ/DX/MP) and D70 (moire) situations, issues which are now a decade old!
And remember that Nikon had 2 class action lqwsuits filed against it for the faulty D600 or Nikon's subsequent actions - i forget the details. Russia even banned the import of the D600 into its country.

I've seen a fair amount Sony bashing about new lenses when said lenses tend to be more suitable for video that still photography - soft corners and all that. Thats on dpreview Sony Nex forum or whatever its called now.

I think its more of a internet phenomena than anything. To avoid it, we probably ought to spend more time on the picture showing side of things. But guys and gear - must be in our DNA somehow :-)

08-31-2014, 01:28 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kerrowdown Quote
As you appear to have an inside track on such matters, we'll all just watch this space for further updates.
I have as much right to start a rumor as anyone else!

Canon is not scrambling since their plan is to reissue the current SL-1 as SL-1b ("b" for bling) with applique green spots simulating LEDs and a chrome strip applied to the leading edge of the prism housing.


Steve

---------- Post added 08-31-14 at 01:32 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Found this today on the dpreview Nikon SLR FX forum:
Wow! The person who did that post must have certain PF members as mentors!


Steve
08-31-2014, 11:31 PM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
It seems more that a little weird to buy into a brand that you know doesn't make the product you want, and then you start bashing that brand for not making what they don't make, never have made, and never have given any indication of planning to make. I suspect that the explanation isn't too far away, though. Blaming the camera/lens/flash system/LED lights is easier than to face the fact that you just aren't a very good photographer.

I prefer to try to improve my skills instead. I might not succeed but I do try. And I don't live under any delusion of being held back by my camera.
Ah... But Pentax themselves have said they are thinking/considering/working on FF for a while now. That's a primary source of frustration for myself, and probably a few others here.

And that stuff you wrote about bashers being inferior photographers? Really? That's what you want to open with?

Let's take a little walk down memory lane, and see where the marketing department at Pentax worked, and where it didn't... at least in my experience.

When I bought into the brand I just liked the SR and weather sealing. I needed a field camera, and the K10D was it. I pre-ordered it, even before it was available. Wikipedia reminds me that this was December, 2006, just 8 short years ago.

Then the K20D. Wow. Amazing bit of machinery and perfect ergonomics with the optional grip. That was probably 2009, I think I got it at the first price dip. With a second body in hand I felt ok about taking on professional work, too.

As I grew to enjoy them, I accumulated many lenses, some produce really stunning images. I've lost count of how many, maybe 30? It's not a lot compared to some users here, but in that pool of lenses are a few really amazing chunks of glass that NEVER let me down.

One of the oddest - and best - is an old TAIR 135mm with front aperture - now that is a stunning lens. If all I did was portraiture and could only own one lens for the rest of my life, that would be the one. I'd even shoot it on a 135 body if that's all I could ever have. In fact I have 3 or 4 Pentax film bodies, and do shoot and develop film myself, so it's not a stretch.

But I do have a Pentax 28-70 f/4 that should be burned at the stake. What a dog. And I do love the look of the 50-135, but after 4 replacement/repairs, it's gone to the kennel, too. See, I have a shelf for those... it's called "the kennel". That first-gen SDM really stunk. What did I do about it? Bought a Sigma 70-200 and never looked back. Problem solved.

Then fast forward to the K-7....

"Nope. Do. Not. Want. It's generally more of the same in a tiny, fiddly package."

About then Pentaxians start to ask:

"Where is the FF? Can't we have one in the old K20D body? It's big enough!"

Fast forward to the K-5, for me that was 2011, I think. Wow, that WAS a viable upgrade - the performance over the K20D is amazing for the work I do. I bought one. I almost bought the K-5ii later, but this little bird said:

"Psst... hey buddy... wanna FF? Just wait a month!"

We all know it never happened, and by then the K5ii was old news. I'd wait; I'm still happy with the K-5, for now.

About that time the price started to fall on the 645D.

"Hmmm .... why not leap ahead of FF?"

See, I'd really love a big optical finder again... my eyesight is getting worse, and even with the magnifying loupe the APS-C's are getting hard to manual focus.

Then the K-3 was released, but I couldn't justify another upgrade into the APS-C line, because after all, the FF is just around the corner, right?

Nope. Didn't happen.

Then the price of the 645D fell A LOT... Now the decision is:

"If my backup camera (the K20D) failed, I'd demote the K-5 to backup, and get a _____? as primary."

But what? K-3? It's a terrific camera. But the 645D, that's nice. But it has some shortcomings... it doesn't suit my working speed. Maybe the rumoured 645Dii will...

"Let's wait... after all, my K-5 is still holding in there, although the K-3 is kinda nice. If the K-5 dies tomorrow, I'll get a K-3... I'm in no rush ... maybe there will be FF?"

That was right around the time of last of the rumours of the FF body from Pentax itself.

In the meantime I did buy an old 645 (120 film) kit; more for the lenses than the body, but it's been a blast to shoot with. And the price was a steal. Turns out MF images are kinda amazing...

"Do I buy the older 645D or the now-released 645Z? I haven't decided yet. But one of them, for sure..."

Fast forward, one last time, to present day. Years have passed since my first K10D. No FF on the horizon; APS-C has served me well, but in 4 years will I still be able to use it?

I think I'll buy the 645D, because it would become the backup for the 645Z if I decide to slow down a bit in my style. So I guess I've decided to buy both of them. Huh.

Now I just have to work out the business case and pricing model adjustments. I'll probably do that over the next couple of months toward the end of 2014. I'll likely buy the 645Z in mid 2015, once I see how that goes, and make enough off the 645D to afford the full price of the Z, and a modern lens.

Back in APS-C land, the rumour mill around the Pentax FF codename: "Unicorn" has completely and totally gone silent, but the shutter count on the K-5 and K20D keep racking up, ever closer to their eventual demise.

With no FF on the horizon I'd be buying into the K-3 in the middle of it's lifecycle - not ideal, as I've learned. So any thoughts about using my FF glass on a FF K-body are pretty much done for. And with the pre-Photokina releases begun (and ended?), what did we get?

A not-FF, not-top-end, not-gonna-have-a-grip-option camera. It's a nicely spec'd camera. It's a good looking sensor. It's just not what I need right now.

Do I care? Not really, but it's frustrating. It won't affect my business planning; I know I'm going to be shooting MF, since there is no FF alternative in the middle ground. It does feel a little like market manipulation, too - to push the top end of the FF segment into MF by delaying FF.

Ah well... it's all Pentax, so it's a bit like a Lamborghini Gallardo owner saying:

"Well, if you're fresh out of Huracan's, I'll guess I'll have to settle for an Aventador."

First world problems, in other words.

Until I fully transition there I still need a machine gunnin', high-ISO'in, sake-snortin', rain-defyin' body.

But wouldn't it be more fun if it were FF? (or 12 cyclinder... )
09-01-2014, 04:15 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by FreeSpirit9 Quote
Could it be a revival of Disco?
No, that would probably involve mirror ball tiles all over The Thing and multi colored lights... :P

09-01-2014, 04:57 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by alexcox Quote
What is most interesting about these posts is how hostile most of the posters are to Ricoh/Pentax. Here and in other parts of the forum many posters seem contemptuous of the company, and to seek to see it fail. I wonder why?
Oh, I think some look at the K-S1 negatively because they want to see Ricoh/Pentax survive if not outright thrive. It's like fans of the old American Motors screaming "no, no, no!" when AMC released the Pacer.
09-01-2014, 06:00 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
It's like fans of the old American Motors screaming "no, no, no!" when AMC released the Pacer.
An unfortunate analogy. Actually, I kind of liked the Pacer but I never bought one (and I guess that's sort of the point.)

Last edited by dadipentak; 09-01-2014 at 06:18 AM.
09-01-2014, 06:23 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Oh, I think some look at the K-S1 negatively because they want to see Ricoh/Pentax survive if not outright thrive. It's like fans of the old American Motors screaming "no, no, no!" when AMC released the Pacer.
But say the K-S1 ends up making Pentax/Ricoh a profit, meaning enough people bought one. In that case, didn't the continuing negativity do little more than possibly hurt additional sales for Pentax? I understand that not everyone likes the camera, and each is entitled to his or her own opinion. It just seems that some of the bashing goes too far over minor things, and just continues to fester, with the same stuff recycled over and over. I notice that this happens a lot on internet forums. Is it because people have too much time to sit on the internet? Who knows.
09-01-2014, 06:38 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Oh, I think some look at the K-S1 negatively because they want to see Ricoh/Pentax survive if not outright thrive. It's like fans of the old American Motors screaming "no, no, no!" when AMC released the Pacer.
The K-S1 is not akin to the Pacer and in my lifetime AMC never made anything of their own* akin to a K-3 or 645Z, other than perhaps the Javelin.


* They bought Kaiser-Jeep (Willys) in 1970, then Renault bought a major stake to use idle factories (Hoya analogy here), then Chrysler bought out Renault in 1987, and now Fiat.

Many large American companies had extended problems adjusting to post-WWII production declines. Their depleted P&E often failed in competition with foreign companies, whose P&E was rebuilt brand new in the 1950's, post-war.

In many ways the analogy is apt, yet - History does not repeat itself, but it certainly may rhyme.

09-01-2014, 06:40 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I'll be monitoring the selfie/ mirror shot count on flickr once this camera gets released to get an idea of the demographics of the K-S1.

The colourful little K-x - which this camera resembles in many positive ways - was very popular with people of all ages, but particularly women it seemed at the time. (Pic below related). Many were to be seen mounting older Pentax lenses and were taking great photos with the camera.

If the distinctive design of the K-S1 allows it to follow in the same path as the K-x as a 'gateway' to the brand, it will be a good result for Pentax.
Very nice to see, but smartphones have taken that spot.
09-01-2014, 06:51 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenntak Quote
But say the K-S1 ends up making Pentax/Ricoh a profit, meaning enough people bought one. In that case, didn't the continuing negativity do little more than possibly hurt additional sales for Pentax? I understand that not everyone likes the camera, and each is entitled to his or her own opinion. It just seems that some of the bashing goes too far over minor things, and just continues to fester, with the same stuff recycled over and over. I notice that this happens a lot on internet forums. Is it because people have too much time to sit on the internet? Who knows.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" (Steven Wright)

I've not "bashed" the camera by any means but like most, have questioned a couple design decisions. I also stated moving the mode dial to the back was an excellent idea. More important, I've really questioned the price. But the price is totally transparent to anyone who might buy the camera so it's not like whatever is written about the price here is going to be some kind of revelation to a potential buyer. Besides, as several have pointed out, the target market is the least likely to even know PentaxForums exists.

If the camera is liked by potential buyers and perceived to be priced right, it will sell provided people ever hear about it. Actually, the worst publicity at all would be for people to think it's too expensive. Only Ricoh can control that.
09-01-2014, 06:55 AM - 2 Likes   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenntak Quote
But say the K-S1 ends up making Pentax/Ricoh a profit, meaning enough people bought one.
Inconceivable.. pentax is doomed.
There seems to be a lot of folks who think Pentax is their company and should cater exclusively to them....
Pentax is not at all like your mom and dad, they're a camera company.
You are a consumer, not an advisor.
Here's what each of us means to Pentax... one possible sale camera body and one possible lens sale in at most every 18 months, I'm guessing.
Pentax probably needs 50,000 sales in the next year.
While I'm sure your opinion counts over in Pentax land, if you leave, Pentax won't die because of you That will be because of the collective decision of at least 10,000 people to abandon the brand.

The KS-1 is an attempt to make up in the enthusiast end what they lose when people leave for pro level equipment.
It's not aimed at K-3 users... or even K-5 II users.

And there's nothing wrong with that.
No one has ever produced a convincing argument that an FF would make Pentax even 10 cents, but there are a pile of scenarios where an FF would cost them money.

Pentax doesn't need an FF as long as they keep grabbing new customers at the low to mid-level camera to make up for their loses out the top. And from a marketing strategy, you get 30 new users with a cool new design at $600-$800 for every one with a pro level design at $3000.

People talk like Pentax doesn't know what it's doing or where it's place in the camera industry is. It's more likely that Pentax knows what its doing, and it's the commentators on the site that are out to lunch.

Pentax marketing is looking at this, and trying to decide "How can we sell an FF camera and make money..." All the people here maybe 200, of the 40,000 people registered on the site, that have said they'd buy one, wouldn't make a dent in what Pentax would need to run a production line.

Meanwhile the whole 645z production until Christmas was sold in pre-order... and it will be months before production supply catches up with demand.
09-01-2014, 06:57 AM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" (Steven Wright)
The subjunctive tense would be doomed!
09-01-2014, 06:59 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The K-S1 is not akin to the Pacer and in my lifetime AMC never made anything of their own* akin to a K-3 or 645Z, other than perhaps the Javelin.


* They bought Kaiser-Jeep (Willys) in 1970, then Renault bought a major stake to use idle factories (Hoya analogy here), then Chrysler bought out Renault in 1987, and now Fiat.

Many large American companies had extended problems adjusting to post-WWII production declines. Their depleted P&E often failed in competition with foreign companies, whose P&E was rebuilt brand new in the 1950's, post-war.

In many ways the analogy is apt, yet - History does not repeat itself, but it certainly may rhyme.
Well, analogies never are perfect but they can be illustrative. Before my time but there must have been Ford fanboys who blew a gasket (sorry) when the Edsel was revealed. I'm sure they did it out of love.
09-01-2014, 09:14 AM   #59
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Thank you, normhead and savoche! I really like my Pentax cameras and lenses and enjoy using them. Sometimes I think I've come to the Trash Pentax site when I read these posts...
09-01-2014, 09:56 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Well, analogies never are perfect but they can be illustrative. Before my time but there must have been Ford fanboys who blew a gasket (sorry) when the Edsel was revealed. I'm sure they did it out of love.
You nailed it! Ricoh should have named the new camera the Pentax K-Edsel!
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