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10-14-2014, 07:34 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
I've been a PC user since 1982. I've been a Mac user since 1986. In general, Macs last longer and take less "fidgeting". I still use both every day. In all those years I only ever purchased one lemon. A 2013 MBP 15". Never was right. Never could get it to be 100% reliable. Towards the end I spent hundreds of hours babysitting it. Thankfully, AppleCare replaced it with a brand new laptop which has been humming along splendidly ever since. As such, I'm a big fan of AppleCare.

YMMV

Michael
I always include the cost of Applecare in the cost of the machine. Last one, i got a refurb and used the savings to buy Applecare. At least for high end machines. I wouldn't bother for a mini. The 1 year warranty is good for the cheaper machines. Most Apples that are going to fail, fail in the first 6 months of operation.

10-14-2014, 07:37 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Well the reality is if you'r on a tight budget you're going to make compromises. But a lot of those are false savings. Sure they get you up and running, but you pay with your time, talking to tech support... etc. that's also the reality. You save money at the start, ou pay extra for the life of the machine. My school Board's estimate was it takes about 18 months to recover the cost difference in maintenance and repair, and teachers and support staff suffer much less aggravation. That's also reality.

I even know an executive in a large computer company who bought Mac's for his whole family, because he was so tired of being the support guy and having to keep everyone's Windows machines running.

As we used to say when I sold computers at a store that sold both... buy a Mac if you can afford it.
It's pay now, or pay later.
I dont buy your argument one sec. It's simply not true. try upgrading a mac. It's twice as expensive if you can even do it.

In a real life exemple, you need to send your computer to a shop to change your Hard drive. C'mon now... that is ridiculous.

Why would it be more expensive down the road for a pc??? please let me know because ever since I switch to PC (Yes I use to buy macs) I have never had to spend more money. As a matter of fact it's so flexible I save tons of money.
10-14-2014, 07:47 AM   #33
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That's pretty simple, because you have the computer skills to upgrade your machine yourself and don't count the time you spend with your machine as cost. The Apple strategy has always been, buy what you need and it will always do what you need. If you need something else, upgrade to a computer with that spec. doing patch work upgrades is not in the end as satisfying for the average customer.

You are not the average customer.
Which explains why Apple always has the highest customer satisfaction rating. They don't encourage that kind of behaviour. Based on the general population, encouraging people to do their own upgrades etc. is poor corporate policy, for the customer as well as for the Corporation. I know, I've fried a PC or two in my time.

There were always people who loved getting Heathkit equipment and assembling it themselves rather than buying their sound equipment off the shelf as well. However, it never became the best thing for most people to do.

I'm guessing you never bought a Mac Pro. Apple has always had a case you can open if you must play around in there and add hard drives and stuff.
https://www.apple.com/ca/mac-pro/

Last edited by normhead; 10-14-2014 at 07:55 AM.
10-14-2014, 08:13 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's pretty simple, because you have the computer skills to upgrade your machine yourself and don't count the time you spend with your machine as cost. The Apple strategy has always been, buy what you need and it will always do what you need. If you need something else, upgrade to a computer with that spec. doing patch work upgrades is not in the end as satisfying for the average customer.

You are not the average customer.
Which explains why Apple always has the highest customer satisfaction rating. They don't encourage that kind of behaviour. Based on the general population, encouraging people to do their own upgrades etc. is poor corporate policy.

There were always people who loved getting Heathkit equipment and assembling it themselves rather than buying their sound equipment off the shelf as well. However, it never became the best thing for most people to do.

I'm guessing you never bought a Mac Pro. Apple has always had a case you can open if you must play around in there and add hard drives and stuff.
https://www.apple.com/ca/mac-pro/
Poor corporate policy? Seems like it works great since windows has more than 90% of the desktop computers.

Depending on what you buy your PC will have a different life time. That is for sure. If you go to the shop and buy the cheapest PC your experience won't be good, not to mention it won't last more than 2 or 3 years.

Here we are talking about this guy that asked the initial question. I assume he has some what basic knowledge about computers and how they work. It seems like he is above average and on top of that he his on a tight budget. That's why i recommended a PC for him. If something needs tweaking or upgrading down the road he will be able to do so. Not to mention he said he would like to take advantage of greater variety of photographic software available on the windows platform. It's a no brainer here, in my opinion this guy needs a desktop PC with windows.

Also, when your pc goes wrong, there is always a brother or a friend that knows his way around windows to fix stuff for you. As for mac users it's hard to find someone that can fix your mac.... what do you do? Go to the apple store witch means more cost again.

My first advice to him would be to never listen to Mac fan boys and do the real homework of what he needs.

Now to your personal issues. Mac pros are very cute, but not very flexible and VERY expensive. the upgrades are almost non possible. Can I add a second graphic card? Can I add anything else? How many PCIe slots? Can I even add an internal HDD or SSD?

here is an excel spread sheet with some benchmarks with custom builts vs mac pro 2013
Benchmark Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oeRpEJCY6Nb3rekImYdsbdtw5uYdB-TGbw1N...it?usp=sharing

Check the video here:

In conclusion: a 8000$ mac pro is about equivalent to a 4600$ custom built PC. (not to mention you can upgrade the PC in the future)

10-14-2014, 09:18 AM   #35
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QuoteQuote:
Also, when your pc goes wrong, there is always a brother or a friend that knows his way around windows to fix stuff for you. As for mac users it's hard to find someone that can fix your mac.... what do you do? Go to the apple store witch means more cost again.

My first advice to him would be to never listen to Mac fan boys and do the real homework of what he needs.

Now to your personal issues. Mac pros are very cute, but not very flexible and VERY expensive. the upgrades are almost non possible. Can I add a second graphic card? Can I add anything else? How many PCIe slots? Can I even add an internal HDD or SSD?

Depend on your family or friends when something goes wrong to fix your PC? Ya, great strategy.

Do real homework? i.e.. Become a computer geek. I used to program machine code, no thanks been there done that, it's work.

And why are you asking me what you can do with Mac Pros? You're supposed to be the expert.

The problem with your whole dissertation is, my school board did actual research on the issue, and decided that MACs were cheaper to run. Now there were guys in the AV department arguing exactly the way you are, and in the end. They lost. The PC required 10 times the support the MACs did. Not exaggerating here, those were the numbers. I'm not exactly lacking in knowledge here. I built my own PCs for class room use. And then maintained them. I know the rigamarole inside and out.

My advice is, unless you are a computer geek, and actually enjoy working on your machines, or can't afford it, buy a MAC.

As for your un-affordablity, when I've was in the stores, I've seen companies walk in and buy 5 Mac Pros in one sitting and leave with fully configured workstations. Affordability is a relative term. I argued successfully from the numbers where I worked , that we couldn't afford PCs, using real hard numbers from real research, an won, based on the numbers. And as for the 10% market share, well you can buy market share, or you can buy customer satisfaction. When you go for the customer satisfaction thing, you aren't talking about computing power and specs... you're talking about "how good does this thing work."


But long story short, I probably have as much history in computing as you do, and I completely disagree with your analysis. And I would suggest recommending that our family or friends maintain your machines is completely unprofessional. But then, I worked and made these kinds of decision in a professional environment, where actual facts, not silly opinions ruled the day.
10-14-2014, 09:36 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Depend on your family or friends when something goes wrong to fix your PC? Ya, great strategy.

Do real homework? i.e.. Become a computer geek. I used to program machine code, no thanks been there done that, it's work.

And why are you asking me what you can do with Mac Pros? You're supposed to be the expert.

The problem with your whole dissertation is, my school board did actual research on the issue, and decided that MACs were cheaper to run. Now there were guys in the AV department arguing exactly the way you are, and in the end. They lost. The PC required 10 times the support the MACs did. Not exaggerating here, those were the numbers. I'm not exactly lacking in knowledge here. I built my own PCs for class room use. And then maintained them. I know the rigamarole inside and out.

My advice is, unless you are a computer geek, and actually enjoy working on your machines, or can't afford it, buy a MAC.

As for your un-affordablity, when I've was in the stores, I've seen companies walk in and buy 5 Mac Pros in one sitting and leave with fully configured workstations. Affordability is a relative term. I argued successfully from the numbers where I worked , that we couldn't afford PCs, using real hard numbers from real research, an won, based on the numbers. And as for the 10% market share, well you can buy market share, or you can buy customer satisfaction. When you go for the customer satisfaction thing, you aren't talking about computing power and specs... you're talking about "how good does this thing work."


But long story short, I probably have as much history in computing as you do, and I completely disagree with your analysis. And I would suggest recommending that our family or friends maintain your machines is completely unprofessional. But then, I worked and made these kinds of decision in a professional environment, where actual facts, not silly opinions ruled the day.
Well, if it's so cheap to buy macs, why do 90% of offices choose the other way around? And you dont have to be a geek to maintain your PC, you simply need basic knowledge of computers and same thing goes to mac as well. Forget the friends argument, mac needs to be taken cared of and updated. If you dont have basic computer knowledge either computer will be hard to keep up with.

I am not talking about water cooling and over clocking here. Just simply anti virus (yes mac needs it too) and common sense. Down the road, pc will always be cheaper, your opinion is based on one little research. I have no idea what the factors are in your case, but the University of Montreal used to run a mac lab and switched to PCs and never looked back.

The reality is that you can do much less on a mac. You can't run architect software like auto-cad and most 3D programs don't run on mac. I won't even go into games.

Macs are like proche cars, they look great out of the box and the design will probably out last all the competition. Heck... it will probably be in a museum one day. But the reality is that it's useless for every day usage. Like trying to go to work in the snow, moving a fews boxes, camping or even going skiing for the weekend with the kids.

I guess the decision will come back to him, not us.
10-14-2014, 09:56 AM   #37
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QuoteQuote:
Well, if it's so cheap to buy macs, why do 90% of offices choose the other way around?
Because their IT departments want to keep their jobs, and because they haven't done the research, they just listen to people like you.
QuoteQuote:
I guess the decision will come back to him, not us.
Ya, you've made their case.

Oh by the way, my study, Dufferin Peel Catholic School Board, ran side by side labs for the Photography and Video and media programs for a year before they made their decision. Actually photography stuff. So you're right, they didn't run drafting software, and that's pretty much irrelevant to photographers. Where as my labs were dedicated to Photography and Video. I'm pretty sure my tests were more relevant to photography.

And by the way, our general labs remained PC based for the reason you state, ou dedicated photography and video labs became MAC based, for the reason I state.

As for your comments on MACs

QuoteQuote:
Macs are like proche cars, they look great out of the box and the design will probably out last all the competition. Heck... it will probably be in a museum one day. But the reality is that it's useless for every day usage. Like trying to go to work in the snow, moving a fews boxes, camping or even going skiing for the weekend with the kids.
You've been brainwashed by the PC cool aid, try having a mind of your own for a while.

And you're right, the decision comes to him not us, but your attack on MACs is hogwash and makes absolutely no attempt to be impartial.

I definitely know why people buy PCs, you haven't got a clue why people buy MACs. They buy PCs because they have to. They need software that doesn't run on MACs, much of it based on MACs lower market share and fewer developers writing software for them.

They buy MAC, because they can, and because it's a much more satisfying computing experience.
10-14-2014, 10:10 AM   #38
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never mind that buying the cards that the mac pro uses are going to set you back almost 10k just by themselves......... so, no, a $4600 PC is NOT equivalent to a $8000 mac pro. One of the (2) cards in the mac pro is more then the entire price of the PC.


http://www.futurelooks.com/new-apple-mac-pro-can-build-better-cheaper-pc-diy-style/


Last edited by link81; 10-14-2014 at 10:17 AM.
10-14-2014, 10:12 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You've been brainwashed by the PC cool aid, try having a mind of your own for a while.
lol first time I've been told I am being brainwashed by PC...

oh and btw, I am actually using a MAC as I write this. So, ya, I know how crappy they are.

10-14-2014, 10:14 AM   #40
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Macs are great, if you can afford them.

A self-built PC is also great, if you have the skills and patience.

Business class PCs are great if you know how to spec them.

Big box PCs suck.

Upgrades to PCs are often not satisfactory (not possible and/or not enough).

Upgrades to Macs are often not satisfactory (not possible and/or not enough).

In practical terms, the upgrade path for both Mac and PC is replacement. $$$

Macs are cooler than PCs and Linux boxes are cooler than both, but a pain in the rear.


Steve

(...has upgraded (memory, hd, and OS) two Macs with mixed success...has built several PCs...was responsible for desktop support and purchasing for a medium-sized company...is currently typing this on a Lenovo ThinkPad that shipped with all the bundled leaches (ummm utilities) intact, will not do that again...)
10-14-2014, 02:30 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by tranceplante Quote
lol first time I've been told I am being brainwashed by PC...

oh and btw, I am actually using a MAC as I write this. So, ya, I know how crappy they are.
Ya, you're a real gem, you think you know it all, and you insult other peoples choices. What a genius. I guess it just couldn't wander into you mindset, that a mac user could have made the best choice for him/herself. No Mr. Arrogant know what's right for everybody and is happy too tell them.
10-14-2014, 02:45 PM   #42
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And thus the latest installment of rational choices and data-based decisions is obliterated by the Holy Wars. <sigh> You gave it a good try, Norm.
10-14-2014, 03:49 PM   #43
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Hey, as long as you can give folks an idea of what the issues are... my step son is a serious gamer and builds his own computers, and we've never felt the need to have this discussion. He does what 's good for him, I do what's good for me, he likes my computer, I like his computer, there's absolutely no need to go down this road.
10-14-2014, 03:56 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya, you're a real gem, you think you know it all, and you insult other peoples choices. What a genius. I guess it just couldn't wander into you mindset, that a mac user could have made the best choice for him/herself. No Mr. Arrogant know what's right for everybody and is happy too tell them.
I didn't insult anyone. If you feel insulted by my arguments that's not my problem. It's only a computer after all mate, don't take it personal.

I simply tried to answer his question the best I could. And with what I read from his post I think Windows is the best option for him especially since he said he would like to take advantage of the softwares available on windows. Not to mention he is on a tight budget. If he knows a thing or two about computer he will be able to save money with windows.

if he would have said he is a graphic designer and needs font compatibility with other projects or something like that than the obvious choice would have been mac.

Anyway, I work with computers and I do support for mac and pc and let me tell you that support on a mac is some what amateur-ish... And I can give you many examples, but I won't go there. I sometimes use mac and I don't really like it.... (personal choice here) I use windows for my personal use.

---------- Post added 10-14-14 at 07:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Upgrades to PCs are often not satisfactory (not possible and/or not enough).

Upgrades to Macs are often not satisfactory (not possible and/or not enough).
To be fair, take any aging pc and replace the HDD with a SSD and maybe add some ram and you just got yourself about 2 years more out of the pc and for just under 200$. On the other hand try adding some ram and a SSD on an imac. not that easy (but doable).
10-16-2014, 03:42 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by tranceplante Quote
Poor corporate policy? Seems like it works great since windows has more than 90% of the desktop computers.
What are the profit margins on Windows PCs? I thought good corporate policy included making money.

---------- Post added 10-16-14 at 03:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by tranceplante Quote
oh and btw, I am actually using a MAC as I write this. So, ya, I know how crappy they are.
Then you should have built it yourself! Once you figure out how to really do it right (although that could take you over a year) you still end up with a machine that requires less than half as much maintenance as Windows.


Of course, most people are better off having Apple build the computer for them. Much better off. But you sound like the type of person who should have done this, rather than complain how crappy your Mac is. At least then you could only blame yourself.

Last edited by DSims; 10-16-2014 at 03:55 PM.
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