Composition Adjustment/Sensor Shift...are you using it?

krsto · 06-13-2015, 05:03 PM

It's not possible to assign raw/fx button to composition adjustment setting on K-3 (and after looking into K-3 II manual, it does not have it either). That makes me wonder. If it is true that the composition adjustment can be changed only on entering LV and cannot be changed during the LV session then I must say I don't quite understand that use case. Pentax most certainly did not forget about it or did not hide it as it is mentioned with other camera specific features on official website (Specifications?K-3 | RICOH IMAGING). So I wonder whether I'm missing some smarter way of changing the adjustment or is it already smart and I just don't 'feel' it or did they remove it from raw/fx setting to make a room for something else or did they forget to put it there while redesigning FW for K-3 and then nobody noticed because nobody uses it?

I tried to play with it in order to add some field of view to wide angle lenses by simple stitch. I found not worth it unless I made sure camera is very firmly mounted on tripod during the whole procedure of changing the composition adjustment. Otherwise it becomes not much simpler than a regular stitching (i.e. requiring rotation, perspective etc. corrections). As far as I remember FLU card specs, it is not possible to make an adjustment from there either. Nor is it possible to anyhow 'program' it in advance. So I'm sure Pentax did not have stitching in mind when designing this feature.

I feel the perspective correction already shown in this thread is most likely the key use case. But still, why not allow for changing the adjustment during the whole LV session?

kadajawi · 06-13-2015, 07:28 PM

That's a bit surprising, but then again not surprising at all. Pentax has a history of f***ing up their cameras, downgrading them for no reason, making bad firmware choices etc. These cameras could do so much more with a bit of firmware, but nope, not making use of it. They are clearly not a software company... and that will be the downfall of Pentax, as the world moves more and more towards computational photography.

mazinger · 06-13-2015, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by krsto

It's not possible to assign raw/fx button to composition adjustment setting on K-3 (and after looking into K-3 II manual, it does not have it either). That makes me wonder. If it is true that the composition adjustment can be changed only on entering LV and cannot be changed during the LV session then I must say I don't quite understand that use case. Pentax most certainly did not forget about it or did not hide it as it is mentioned with other camera specific features on official website (Specifications?K-3 | RICOH IMAGING). So I wonder whether I'm missing some smarter way of changing the adjustment or is it already smart and I just don't 'feel' it or did they remove it from raw/fx setting to make a room for something else or did they forget to put it there while redesigning FW for K-3 and then nobody noticed because nobody uses it?

I tried to play with it in order to add some field of view to wide angle lenses by simple stitch. I found not worth it unless I made sure camera is very firmly mounted on tripod during the whole procedure of changing the composition adjustment. Otherwise it becomes not much simpler than a regular stitching (i.e. requiring rotation, perspective etc. corrections). As far as I remember FLU card specs, it is not possible to make an adjustment from there either. Nor is it possible to anyhow 'program' it in advance. So I'm sure Pentax did not have stitching in mind when designing this feature.

I feel the perspective correction already shown in this thread is most likely the key use case. But still, why not allow for changing the adjustment during the whole LV session?

i tried to make this feature work on the K-3 last time (see my April 13 post) but it didn't work.

mikeSF · 06-14-2015, 01:36 PM

i'm still rocking the K5 so cannot answer this, sorry. Anyone able to comment re: K3?
thanks

**savoche** · 06-14-2015, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

i'm still rocking the K5 so cannot answer this, sorry. Anyone able to comment re: K3?
thanks

I have assigned it to the Fx button on the K-5, but can't on the K-3 - which is very annoying. I can assign SR toggle to the Fx button now, though.

**rayallen** · 06-14-2015, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by savoche

I have assigned it to the Fx button on the K-5, but can't on the K-3 - which is very annoying. I can assign SR toggle to the Fx button now, though.

That is correct. Can't be done on a K-3.

kadajawi · 06-15-2015, 12:32 AM

I would. It is a couple of extra steps. Especially since I also use the feature to create a bigger frame/field of view. Though if I could get a switch to video mode function on the Fx button that would be even better. Oh well... What is happening at Pentax?

**rayallen** · 06-15-2015, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by mikeSF

there you go. but seriously, i don't find it particularly inconvenient to enter the composition adjust screen via MENU each time.

For the number of times I use it, it doesn't bother me either.

mikeSF · 12-06-2015, 01:14 AM

well, i've since gotten the K3II and entering composition adjust is nowhere near as easy as on the K5 so yes, I agree, it should be assignable to a function key or at least have an icon on the status menu.

anu l · 12-27-2015, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

An alternative might be a panorama head and a telephoto lens. The additional resolution may help out enough, though processing will take up even more time and work. Panoramic heads are great for interior shots too, IMHO. I use it all the time.

Another alternative... a _really_ tall tripod, if that exists. Say you can get it up to 2 meters, maybe more. Perhaps hold it up (or a monopod). Then a K-S2, with WiFi so you have some control over the shot (can see what the camera sees on your phone), though when you hold it up you'd need someone to assist you. Or park your car in front of the building and climb onto the car.

You can still use composition adjustment (which the K-S2 probably has?) to get even further in any case. The K-S2 also has the advantage of a flippy screen over the K-3, so you can shoot from a higher position compared to having to use the OVF or a fixed LCD screen.

Basically, try to think of a way to shoot from as high a position as possible. And feel free to combine several things to get it done... wider lens + composition adjustment + higher shooting position. Good luck!

unfortunately the K-S2 doesnt have this, even the K-50 which costs less has it. this is disappointing, no extra hardware was needed to implement it, just a strategy to make you buy K-3 or K-3 II

Simen1 · 02-18-2016, 04:07 AM

Thanks for telling about this technique.

I have to try this out.

Do you know how many mm the sensor can be shifted?

Given the pixel shift resolution feature in some newer cameras, I hope future Pentax cameras will have a similar function stitching together four shifted images to simulate a larger sensor. I don't know how much but I can imagine having an FF simulator in a APS-C camera would be a fantastic feature. Equally impressive having a MF simulator in a FF camera. I guess its possible to get via firmware upgrade too.

**csa** · 02-18-2016, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by mikeSF

Here is another example using the composition adjust/sensor shift feature (K5 & Sigma 10-20).
I used a free GIF maker, so hopefully you are able to view the animation...

My camera was ~1ft from the ground and aiming upward, so complete correction of the converging verticals could not be achieved. Nevertheless, you should be able to see an improvement using the sensor shift to raise the sensor +24 and then reduce the camera tilt to match the original composition. I used the center of the image as my stationary target.
There has been NO software correction of the perspective, this is an in-camera adjustment.

Not only the post, but the truck on the left side shows quite a difference!

Thanks for bringing this feature to our attention, and for the great samples!

r0ckstarr · 02-18-2016, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by csa

Not only the post, but the truck on the left side shows quite a difference!

I think that truck may have moved a little bit inbetween shots.

krsto · 02-18-2016, 09:51 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Simen1

Do you know how many mm the sensor can be shifted?

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.uk/en/digital-slr/specifications/K3.html
Composition Adjustment: Adjustment range of ±1.5mm up, down, left or light (1mm when rotated); rotating range of 1 degree

It's close to APS-H. It looks like this: View image: size Center is K-3 APS-C, outer black is K-3 APS-C plus sensor shift. Red is canon APS-H and green is my dream 4:3 sensor with area of the APS-H (basically it would fit all the APS-C lenses and with K-3 sensor density it would have K-1 resolution).

Simen1 · 02-19-2016, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by krsto

Composition Adjustment: Adjustment range of ±1.5mm up, down, left or light (1mm when rotated); rotating range of 1 degree

Thanks! I see its the same amount for K-1

That means a K-3's 23,5 x 15,6 mm 24 Mp sensor should be able to simulate a 26,5 x 18,6 mm 32,4 Mp sensor. About 34% larger area then original.
That means a K-1's 35,9 x 24 mm 36,4 Mp sensor should be able to simulate a 38,9 x 27,0 mm 44,4 Mp sensor. About 22% larger area then original.

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06-13-2015, 05:03 PM	#76
krsto New Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 15	It's not possible to assign raw/fx button to composition adjustment setting on K-3 (and after looking into K-3 II manual, it does not have it either). That makes me wonder. If it is true that the composition adjustment can be changed only on entering LV and cannot be changed during the LV session then I must say I don't quite understand that use case. Pentax most certainly did not forget about it or did not hide it as it is mentioned with other camera specific features on official website (Specifications?K-3 \| RICOH IMAGING). So I wonder whether I'm missing some smarter way of changing the adjustment or is it already smart and I just don't 'feel' it or did they remove it from raw/fx setting to make a room for something else or did they forget to put it there while redesigning FW for K-3 and then nobody noticed because nobody uses it? I tried to play with it in order to add some field of view to wide angle lenses by simple stitch. I found not worth it unless I made sure camera is very firmly mounted on tripod during the whole procedure of changing the composition adjustment. Otherwise it becomes not much simpler than a regular stitching (i.e. requiring rotation, perspective etc. corrections). As far as I remember FLU card specs, it is not possible to make an adjustment from there either. Nor is it possible to anyhow 'program' it in advance. So I'm sure Pentax did not have stitching in mind when designing this feature. I feel the perspective correction already shown in this thread is most likely the key use case. But still, why not allow for changing the adjustment during the whole LV session?

06-13-2015, 07:28 PM	#77
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	That's a bit surprising, but then again not surprising at all. Pentax has a history of f***ing up their cameras, downgrading them for no reason, making bad firmware choices etc. These cameras could do so much more with a bit of firmware, but nope, not making use of it. They are clearly not a software company... and that will be the downfall of Pentax, as the world moves more and more towards computational photography.

06-13-2015, 08:31 PM	#78
mazinger Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 42	Originally posted by krsto It's not possible to assign raw/fx button to composition adjustment setting on K-3 (and after looking into K-3 II manual, it does not have it either). That makes me wonder. If it is true that the composition adjustment can be changed only on entering LV and cannot be changed during the LV session then I must say I don't quite understand that use case. Pentax most certainly did not forget about it or did not hide it as it is mentioned with other camera specific features on official website (Specifications?K-3 \| RICOH IMAGING). So I wonder whether I'm missing some smarter way of changing the adjustment or is it already smart and I just don't 'feel' it or did they remove it from raw/fx setting to make a room for something else or did they forget to put it there while redesigning FW for K-3 and then nobody noticed because nobody uses it? I tried to play with it in order to add some field of view to wide angle lenses by simple stitch. I found not worth it unless I made sure camera is very firmly mounted on tripod during the whole procedure of changing the composition adjustment. Otherwise it becomes not much simpler than a regular stitching (i.e. requiring rotation, perspective etc. corrections). As far as I remember FLU card specs, it is not possible to make an adjustment from there either. Nor is it possible to anyhow 'program' it in advance. So I'm sure Pentax did not have stitching in mind when designing this feature. I feel the perspective correction already shown in this thread is most likely the key use case. But still, why not allow for changing the adjustment during the whole LV session? i tried to make this feature work on the K-3 last time (see my April 13 post) but it didn't work.

06-14-2015, 01:36 PM	#79
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,620 Original Poster	i'm still rocking the K5 so cannot answer this, sorry. Anyone able to comment re: K3? thanks

06-14-2015, 02:24 PM	#80
savoche Master of the obvious Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Lowlands of Norway Posts: 18,311	Originally posted by mikeSF i'm still rocking the K5 so cannot answer this, sorry. Anyone able to comment re: K3? thanks I have assigned it to the Fx button on the K-5, but can't on the K-3 - which is very annoying. I can assign SR toggle to the Fx button now, though.

06-14-2015, 02:58 PM	#81
rayallen Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Forresters Beach, NSW, Australia. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,014	Originally posted by savoche I have assigned it to the Fx button on the K-5, but can't on the K-3 - which is very annoying. I can assign SR toggle to the Fx button now, though. That is correct. Can't be done on a K-3.

06-15-2015, 12:32 AM	#82
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	I would. It is a couple of extra steps. Especially since I also use the feature to create a bigger frame/field of view. Though if I could get a switch to video mode function on the Fx button that would be even better. Oh well... What is happening at Pentax?

06-15-2015, 03:19 AM	#83
rayallen Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Forresters Beach, NSW, Australia. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,014	Originally posted by mikeSF there you go. but seriously, i don't find it particularly inconvenient to enter the composition adjust screen via MENU each time. For the number of times I use it, it doesn't bother me either.

12-06-2015, 01:14 AM	#84
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,620 Original Poster	well, i've since gotten the K3II and entering composition adjust is nowhere near as easy as on the K5 so yes, I agree, it should be assignable to a function key or at least have an icon on the status menu.

12-27-2015, 09:05 AM	#85
anu l Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 216	Originally posted by kadajawi An alternative might be a panorama head and a telephoto lens. The additional resolution may help out enough, though processing will take up even more time and work. Panoramic heads are great for interior shots too, IMHO. I use it all the time. Another alternative... a _really_ tall tripod, if that exists. Say you can get it up to 2 meters, maybe more. Perhaps hold it up (or a monopod). Then a K-S2, with WiFi so you have some control over the shot (can see what the camera sees on your phone), though when you hold it up you'd need someone to assist you. Or park your car in front of the building and climb onto the car. You can still use composition adjustment (which the K-S2 probably has?) to get even further in any case. The K-S2 also has the advantage of a flippy screen over the K-3, so you can shoot from a higher position compared to having to use the OVF or a fixed LCD screen. Basically, try to think of a way to shoot from as high a position as possible. And feel free to combine several things to get it done... wider lens + composition adjustment + higher shooting position. Good luck! unfortunately the K-S2 doesnt have this, even the K-50 which costs less has it. this is disappointing, no extra hardware was needed to implement it, just a strategy to make you buy K-3 or K-3 II

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02-18-2016, 04:07 AM	#86
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	Thanks for telling about this technique. I have to try this out. Do you know how many mm the sensor can be shifted? Given the pixel shift resolution feature in some newer cameras, I hope future Pentax cameras will have a similar function stitching together four shifted images to simulate a larger sensor. I don't know how much but I can imagine having an FF simulator in a APS-C camera would be a fantastic feature. Equally impressive having a MF simulator in a FF camera. I guess its possible to get via firmware upgrade too.

02-18-2016, 08:43 AM	#87
csa Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Montana mountains Posts: 10,133	Originally posted by mikeSF Here is another example using the composition adjust/sensor shift feature (K5 & Sigma 10-20). I used a free GIF maker, so hopefully you are able to view the animation... My camera was ~1ft from the ground and aiming upward, so complete correction of the converging verticals could not be achieved. Nevertheless, you should be able to see an improvement using the sensor shift to raise the sensor +24 and then reduce the camera tilt to match the original composition. I used the center of the image as my stationary target. There has been NO software correction of the perspective, this is an in-camera adjustment. Not only the post, but the truck on the left side shows quite a difference! Thanks for bringing this feature to our attention, and for the great samples!

02-18-2016, 08:59 AM	#88
r0ckstarr Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,507	Originally posted by csa Not only the post, but the truck on the left side shows quite a difference! I think that truck may have moved a little bit inbetween shots.

02-18-2016, 09:51 AM - 1 Like	#89
krsto New Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 15	Originally posted by Simen1 Do you know how many mm the sensor can be shifted? http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.uk/en/digital-slr/specifications/K3.html Composition Adjustment: Adjustment range of ±1.5mm up, down, left or light (1mm when rotated); rotating range of 1 degree It's close to APS-H. It looks like this: View image: size Center is K-3 APS-C, outer black is K-3 APS-C plus sensor shift. Red is canon APS-H and green is my dream 4:3 sensor with area of the APS-H (basically it would fit all the APS-C lenses and with K-3 sensor density it would have K-1 resolution).

02-19-2016, 05:06 AM	#90
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	Originally posted by krsto Composition Adjustment: Adjustment range of ±1.5mm up, down, left or light (1mm when rotated); rotating range of 1 degree Thanks! I see its the same amount for K-1 That means a K-3's 23,5 x 15,6 mm 24 Mp sensor should be able to simulate a 26,5 x 18,6 mm 32,4 Mp sensor. About 34% larger area then original. That means a K-1's 35,9 x 24 mm 36,4 Mp sensor should be able to simulate a 38,9 x 27,0 mm 44,4 Mp sensor. About 22% larger area then original.