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05-17-2008, 04:03 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by brothereye Quote
I haven't used a K20D, but apparently I have either low standards or an especially good K10D, it focuses fine for me in conditions that are so dim I can't see to focus manually, and it does it plenty fast, at least with the DA* 16-50. That was something that really impressed me about the K10D when I got it, in fact. This doesn't preclude other camera's from having faster AF systems, but so far, I'm pleased with the AF performance of my K10D.

Oh well, maybe I'm just remembering the AF systems on the 35mm cameras I owned(and MF 35mm before that), all those years ago.....
Pentax's AF works fine.

I have been getting sharp pics with no major problem from my Ds, K10 and K20.

Nevertheless, some other makers's AF are better (I have hands-on experience with Canon but testimonies show that it is also the case for Nikon or Sony).

It's not like you won't be able to get sharp shots with a Pentax as no AF is THAT bad but in comparative testing on the same subjects (K20+50f1.4 in one hand 30D + 50f1.4 in the other and shooting the same subjects alternatively with each camera), the Canon was always faster and most of the time more accurate meaning less oof shots at the end of the day.

Make this test: shoot like you did when you had no LCD screen in the film day.

Shoot you subject only once and never review the pic until you download it to your computer.

When I did that with my K10 and my 30D, I was surprised to see I was getting almost 45% of more or less oof shots with the K10 while I almost didn't get any with the Canon (easy subjects in good light).

Sometimes, the difference was small but direct comparison with the precisely focused shot revealed it clearly.

K20D is better but I still get clearly more oof shots with it than with the 30D (now 3 years old).

Pentax will progress in this department but so will other makers that have the advantage of having years of experience in developping pro equipments that drive them forward at a faster pace.

The thing I also realized is that, these small AF errors will quickly destroy the MP advantage the K20 has over the lowly 8MP 30D.

A precisely focused image will always be better than a less precisely focused one, even with double the resolution and even if the focus error is small. Digital is less and less forgiving on the AF precision requirement as the MP count goes up... film days are far away now.

My conclusion so far: it's not slower focus that can hinder Pentax from being the system it deserves to be, it's the imprecise focus.

It's a shame because at equal focus precision, the K20 pics are quite a bit better than the 30D ones.

People who claim that Pentax is slower but more precise than Canon must have got different gear that I have...

05-17-2008, 04:58 AM   #32
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Pentax FA50/1,4 isn´t a good choice in low light for autofocus, use a flash for focus help.
And live-view on K20D ise´t a hit.
05-17-2008, 05:16 AM   #33
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For those who wants to see "Digital Camera World" full test of the K20 D:
Picasa Web Albums - Yves - Pentax K20D test
If you look at the bottom of page 4 (ratings) you will see what they think of it compared to others in the same league.
05-17-2008, 05:17 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Pentax's AF works fine.


It's a shame because at equal focus precision, the K20 pics are quite a bit better than the 30D ones.

People who claim that Pentax is slower but more precise than Canon must have got different gear that I have...
Ever since you bought your 30D I've been following your posts. Thanks. I think they have been balanced and fair. I opted to get a Sony A700 for two reasons. I wanted a faster and more accurate unit for action shooting. It just so happened Best Buy had a closeout on the A700 at such a low price I couldn't pass it up. I also bought two cheap old Minolta zoom lenses to test it out. These lenses are significantly faster and more accurate than anything I have tried on my K10D. The IQ is as good if not better.

I'm planning on keeping my K10D and primes but will use the A700 for action.

Regards,
Ken

05-17-2008, 05:56 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Pentax's AF works fine.

I have been getting sharp pics with no major problem from my Ds, K10 and K20.

Nevertheless, some other makers's AF are better (I have hands-on experience with Canon but testimonies show that it is also the case for Nikon or Sony).

It's not like you won't be able to get sharp shots with a Pentax as no AF is THAT bad but in comparative testing on the same subjects (K20+50f1.4 in one hand 30D + 50f1.4 in the other and shooting the same subjects alternatively with each camera), the Canon was always faster and most of the time more accurate meaning less oof shots at the end of the day.

Make this test: shoot like you did when you had no LCD screen in the film day.

Shoot you subject only once and never review the pic until you download it to your computer.

When I did that with my K10 and my 30D, I was surprised to see I was getting almost 45% of more or less oof shots with the K10 while I almost didn't get any with the Canon (easy subjects in good light).

Sometimes, the difference was small but direct comparison with the precisely focused shot revealed it clearly.

K20D is better but I still get clearly more oof shots with it than with the 30D (now 3 years old).

Pentax will progress in this department but so will other makers that have the advantage of having years of experience in developping pro equipments that drive them forward at a faster pace.

The thing I also realized is that, these small AF errors will quickly destroy the MP advantage the K20 has over the lowly 8MP 30D.

A precisely focused image will always be better than a less precisely focused one, even with double the resolution and even if the focus error is small. Digital is less and less forgiving on the AF precision requirement as the MP count goes up... film days are far away now.

My conclusion so far: it's not slower focus that can hinder Pentax from being the system it deserves to be, it's the imprecise focus.

It's a shame because at equal focus precision, the K20 pics are quite a bit better than the 30D ones.

People who claim that Pentax is slower but more precise than Canon must have got different gear that I have...
Strange, but the pictures I get out of my Pentaxes are almost always perfectly focused. As far as speed is concerned, I think (I may be wrong there) your Canon as a motorized lens. If you put a SDM lens on a Pentax and compare it with a Cannon or Nikon with motorized lens, the speed difference is hardly worth talking about.
05-17-2008, 06:15 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Ever since you bought your 30D I've been following your posts. Thanks. I think they have been balanced and fair. I opted to get a Sony A700 for two reasons. I wanted a faster and more accurate unit for action shooting. It just so happened Best Buy had a closeout on the A700 at such a low price I couldn't pass it up. I also bought two cheap old Minolta zoom lenses to test it out. These lenses are significantly faster and more accurate than anything I have tried on my K10D. The IQ is as good if not better.

I'm planning on keeping my K10D and primes but will use the A700 for action.

Regards,
Ken
As you can see, I still like the Pentax setup a lot, if AF accuracy and speed was on par with the Canon one, I would probably dump the Canon one.

Pentax offers better build quality, weather sealing, compactness, nicer interface IMO, SR that works really well and I feel really "home" when I use it.

But ultimately, it's the IQ that counts for me and I am now in a strange paradigm: when the K20 focuses well (and it does most of the time), I get better images than with the 30D. But when the focus is not good enough, I get better images with the 30D.

So, do I accept loosing some shots to missed focusing (after all, I have managed so far...) or do I go for a Canon setup and compensate the difference in IQ by selling all the Pentax gear to buy a 5D + wide angle zoom, thus getting even better IQ and excellent focusing capabilities at the expense of ease of use, ruggedness and compactness?

I am in no hurry to decide as the 5D prices are plummeting (new one come for around 1500 euros these days and will probably be even cheaper if Canon announce a replacement).

In the mean time, I carry both systems and choose one according to my needs and feeling of the moment... it's double the pleqsure, double the fun!
05-17-2008, 06:27 AM   #37
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I don't think most here have gotten it. You seem to want to believe reviewers like this guy (who basically has given a good review but has focused on the slight flaws to give credence to another brand name camera that also has some slight flaws.)
You all just don't get it. NO CAMERA OR SYSTEM is perfect. You need to understand what your personal needs are and the way you shoot in order to get the right camera for you.
I have always been happy with My camera choices in Pentax because they cover the way I shoot. For those of you who need the newest, biggest and maybe the best each time a camera comes out then it's not about photography, it's about how much you spend and how new the camera is. You all seem to want to be able to find the flaws instead of being happy with the way you and the camera respond to each other.
I started digital photography with an istDL which every one said was slow and was only for first time users. OK so they may have been right in their reviews but in using the camera for over two years and getting very good results It had every thing I needed to get the job done. I moved up to the K100D a year after it came out and was on it's way out as the newest and best. The only reason I bought it was for the shake reduction (which I needed, I'm getting older and my hands aren't that steady any more.) I still use both cameras and each has their own use for the way I shoot. I'm happy with what I have and satisfied with the make and build of my cameras. The reviewers be Dammed.
If I want to take action shots I use a Canon or Nikon If I really want to get the best results for portrait I'll use a medium format. No matter what there is no camera made today or ever that has given to being the only camera to use for all situations. Yes know the cameras limitations (and yours) Either work around the faults or find another system, but you will also find the limitations of other systems and then you'll have to have another camera or another system.
LEARN TO USE WHAT YOU HAVE AND BE HAPPY OR SPEND MORE MONEY AND TIME TRYING TO BE HAPPY.
05-17-2008, 06:38 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Photo Tramp Quote
I don't think most here have gotten it. You seem to want to believe reviewers like this guy (who basically has given a good review but has focused on the slight flaws to give credence to another brand name camera that also has some slight flaws.)
You all just don't get it. NO CAMERA OR SYSTEM is perfect. You need to understand what your personal needs are and the way you shoot in order to get the right camera for you.
I have always been happy with My camera choices in Pentax because they cover the way I shoot. For those of you who need the newest, biggest and maybe the best each time a camera comes out then it's not about photography, it's about how much you spend and how new the camera is. You all seem to want to be able to find the flaws instead of being happy with the way you and the camera respond to each other.
I started digital photography with an istDL which every one said was slow and was only for first time users. OK so they may have been right in their reviews but in using the camera for over two years and getting very good results It had every thing I needed to get the job done. I moved up to the K100D a year after it came out and was on it's way out as the newest and best. The only reason I bought it was for the shake reduction (which I needed, I'm getting older and my hands aren't that steady any more.) I still use both cameras and each has their own use for the way I shoot. I'm happy with what I have and satisfied with the make and build of my cameras. The reviewers be Dammed.
If I want to take action shots I use a Canon or Nikon If I really want to get the best results for portrait I'll use a medium format. No matter what there is no camera made today or ever that has given to being the only camera to use for all situations. Yes know the cameras limitations (and yours) Either work around the faults or find another system, but you will also find the limitations of other systems and then you'll have to have another camera or another system.
LEARN TO USE WHAT YOU HAVE AND BE HAPPY OR SPEND MORE MONEY AND TIME TRYING TO BE HAPPY.
I wish I knew who you are trying to address with your comments. For one, I am quite happy with what I have. I agree that no system is perfect, and I have no problems with the so called "limitations" of the Pentax system. It does just about everything I ask of it with no problems. When people say that AF is slow and inaccurate on Pentax, then I have to disagree. With the proper lens, it can compete with just about any others.

05-17-2008, 08:31 AM   #39
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Every family has its drawbacks....?

Just read the article.

Photographer Discusses His Decision To Make 'The Switch'

Hope this will dry everyones AF-tears?
05-17-2008, 09:19 AM   #40
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eh, most people know about the MkIII AF suckage. Im glad I don't have to worry about all of this AF stuff.
05-17-2008, 10:32 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
As you can see, I still like the Pentax setup a lot, if AF accuracy and speed was on par with the Canon one, I would probably dump the Canon one.

Pentax offers better build quality, weather sealing, compactness, nicer interface IMO, SR that works really well and I feel really "home" when I use it.

But ultimately, it's the IQ that counts for me and I am now in a strange paradigm: when the K20 focuses well (and it does most of the time), I get better images than with the 30D. But when the focus is not good enough, I get better images with the 30D.

So, do I accept loosing some shots to missed focusing (after all, I have managed so far...) or do I go for a Canon setup and compensate the difference in IQ by selling all the Pentax gear to buy a 5D + wide angle zoom, thus getting even better IQ and excellent focusing capabilities at the expense of ease of use, ruggedness and compactness?

I am in no hurry to decide as the 5D prices are plummeting (new one come for around 1500 euros these days and will probably be even cheaper if Canon announce a replacement).

In the mean time, I carry both systems and choose one according to my needs and feeling of the moment... it's double the pleqsure, double the fun!
Hi again, IQ is the most important feature for me too, thats why I still use 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film and drum scan it for 95% of what I do.The DSLR's are still just experiments for me even though I've been playing with them since the Nikon D70.Shooting with the Canon 5D for a year, I got just as many mis-focused auto focused shots with the 5D as with the K20DIf it was a shot I really cared about manual focus it was and is.I'm still up in the air on IQ between my K20D and 5D, I don't think either one looks good beyond 16x20 IMHO

K20D+FA35 Hand held 1/20th sec. at f/11
05-17-2008, 10:59 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by dstar Quote
good luck with Sony service. You smile very fast turn to cry
I would argue with that. I've had several point and shoot sonys and after the sensor went bad in my 4 1/2 yr old out of warranty sony 717 they replaced the sensor and and cleaned the camera up like new all at no cost..they even payed postage both ways. All this and I had my camera back in less than 2 weeks. I think pentax should take a page out of theur book when it comes to service...Bob
05-17-2008, 11:12 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by robert Quote
I would argue with that. I've had several point and shoot sonys and after the sensor went bad in my 4 1/2 yr old out of warranty sony 717 they replaced the sensor and and cleaned the camera up like new all at no cost..they even payed postage both ways. All this and I had my camera back in less than 2 weeks. I think pentax should take a page out of theur book when it comes to service...Bob
It helps a bit when they put defective sensors out there...... speeds things up a bit.
"Sony manufactured some bad sensors a few years ago, and Canon and Fuji digicams also used them because Sony makes a large percentage of all the sensors used.
The lawsuit was to force Sony to replace faulty sensors in their own cameras, and to pay anyone who had the job done already at their own expense.
But the bad sensors were only installed in cameras made during a certain time period, so if your serial# excludes you from this group you may have a different problem, and Sony is unlikely to respond.
The page for a failed CCD sensor at Sony's esupport site is:
http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/new...17&news_id=118
If your camera doesn't produce the "test" results shown, you will not be eligible for the free fix. However, if you keep using it after noticing bad images (like I did) it possibly WILL fail all the way, pass Sony's test, and be eligible.

After my F717's sensor went completely bad, I went through the steps on the page above and was immediately assigned an 'Event ID#'.
Within ten days (six business days) I received a prepaid UPS shipping label via email.
(It takes time because Sony has to get together with UPS for each of thousands of cameras who's faulty sensors are now dying.)
I shipped my camera Wednesday, and today (Saturday) I got an email saying that it has arrived at the repair facility in Laredo.

Other people I have talked to about this, having gone through the process already, state that I should have it back in two weeks, and that it will be in perfect working order, at zero cost to me.

So far, it has been an easy and problem-free process.
Make sure you give Sony a correct email address and street address, and that you receive an Event ID#.
Good luck.

Sony DSC-F717 overexposure. - Tech Support Guy Forums

Annnnnd.............. if Pentax ever puts a rootkit on a CD I'm definitely out of here.........
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05-17-2008, 01:31 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by robert Quote
I would argue with that. I've had several point and shoot sonys and after the sensor went bad in my 4 1/2 yr old out of warranty sony 717 they replaced the sensor and and cleaned the camera up like new all at no cost..they even payed postage both ways. All this and I had my camera back in less than 2 weeks. I think pentax should take a page out of theur book when it comes to service...Bob
Try deal with Sony when you has Minolta or some older Minolta lenses
05-17-2008, 02:36 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
Strange, but the pictures I get out of my Pentaxes are almost always perfectly focused. As far as speed is concerned, I think (I may be wrong there) your Canon as a motorized lens. If you put a SDM lens on a Pentax and compare it with a Cannon or Nikon with motorized lens, the speed difference is hardly worth talking about.
I have the 50-135 SDM and compared to the 70-200f4 IS, I can tell you that the AF speed difference is absolutely evident. The 50-135 is what I would call a slow AF lens, even by Pentax standards.


The focusing speed difference between the two 50s is indeed not worth talking about.

Again, from my experience, the problem is not speed but inconsistent accuracy.

Maybe I am just unlucky.
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