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11-02-2014, 08:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
But enough, now for many items, is more than the best just a few years ago. My Windows tablet has a processor I could not even have dreamed of in my desktops even 5 or 6 years ago. It already does everything I need to do better, faster than I need to do it. I continue to upgrade just because I am a gadget addict, not because I need the new toys. Much the same holds for our current DSLRs.
I think was you have on a tablet now is more what was commonly available on destop 10 years ago and you could not have dreamed it 15 years ago.

If the evolution of thing had continued for desktop the same speed it had in the 90, what you commonly find in destop would be 10-20 time faster than they are now. Extreme mobility catch up because while we continue to make smaller transistor and thus reduce heat and power consumption (mobile device) we cannot increase anymore destop performance.

11-02-2014, 12:38 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I think was you have on a tablet now is more what was commonly available on destop 10 years ago and you could not have dreamed it 15 years ago.

If the evolution of thing had continued for desktop the same speed it had in the 90, what you commonly find in destop would be 10-20 time faster than they are now. Extreme mobility catch up because while we continue to make smaller transistor and thus reduce heat and power consumption (mobile device) we cannot increase anymore destop performance.
Maybe one day the iPhone camera will match up the current DSLR , say 5d mkiii or nikon 810, haha.
11-02-2014, 01:32 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by starjedi Quote
Maybe one day the iPhone camera will match up the current DSLR , say 5d mkiii or nikon 810, haha.
That's possible ! Too bad it will not match the bokeh and high iso doesn't count that much for most photos...
11-02-2014, 02:09 PM   #19
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I'm telling you, Q is the way of the future! Some day we will all carry around little Q cameras, with image quality surpassing our big-sensor cameras now! And the Q will also have a phone function!


Last edited by Na Horuk; 11-02-2014 at 02:14 PM.
11-02-2014, 02:49 PM   #20
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The larger cameras will always have a place for the foreseeable future due to optical qualities of different sized lenses, bokeh, depth of field and I could go on. I suppose at some point we might be able to take a picture with with a phone camera and blow it up the size of a billboard and then create all the lens effects we cherish like bokeh and starbursts in PP. That's kind of possible right now and we see that stuff in the movie theaters but the technology is out of reach for all but the large studios. It won't be sensor technology but software. Take a crappy snapshot and turn it into a masterpiece. No more worries about focus accuracy, exposure, camera shake, nose hairs or yellow teeth. The camera will be replaced by Photoshop.
11-02-2014, 03:51 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is more the contrary: hardware stopped its evolution 10 years ago. We just manage it to make it smaller and smaller, not faster. Even through the moore law continue to apply, we don't manage anymore to boost computer frequencies and the multicore promises failed for classic desktop applications: we are stuck to 4 core while most software is unable to really benefit of it.
Not true. Intel haswell brought 8 execution ports per core (up from 6 on the previous generation) - so each CPU can execute 8 instructions in parallel. It also brought the ability to perform unaligned 256byte loads & stores at the same speed as aligned memory operations (previously that would incur a huge cost). It's also bought the ability to use the same register as the source and destination operand in an XMM/YMM operation (freeing up more registers, and reducing the memory access overhead). You can now perform the same integer operation on 8x32bit integers (up from 4 in the previous generation).

If you are running 4 applications on your desktop, you're benefitting from multi core already.

You're also posting on a photography forum. As someone who is a runtime optimisation engineer on graphics apps, I'd like to point out that you're wrong about no optimisation potential. You click a button, it's my job to get in process your data, and then get out again before you even notice. I can spin up all of your cores, process the image, and return them to a low power state in less than 1millisecond.

If I do my job properly, you'll never notice my efforts on your task manager graphs. If you do see my code causing a spike, it isn't my code, it's the 'rest of your hardware'.

If you skimped on memory (and bought the slow cheap stuff), or you skimped on the hard drive (and didn't get an ssd), then there is nothing I can do for you. The app is not limited by the CPU, it's limited because k3 have doubled the pixel count from the kx, and so your next PC upgrade should concentrate on improving the ability to feed the CPU with data, before you look at a faster CPU.

QuoteQuote:
The software model switched again to a server model (here using web server) where most of the data and computing is done on the server. This give us the universal terminal through web browsers as end user but to companies this give them all our personnal data to play with. This is why the internet is free: companies pay themselves on our personnal data. To them mobile phones are just another way to get their client data and serve ads.
It's more environmentally friendly to do perform computation on a server, but that's not really what's happening. It's your devices that are doing the computing (its cheaper for them). If you hand your data over to others, that's your choice (I can't say that's something I do personally). Most of those companies are simply data storage facilities funded by advertising.

QuoteQuote:
What allowed you to not change your hardware is not that is good enough, but more that a mix of reasons. First processor performance now capped. So no better alternative anyway.
Rubbish. The cheapest i3 today would destroy the fastest core2 quad of yesterday (and use a small percentage of the power to do so).

Your bottleneck is not the CPU, it's the disk access and memory speeds.

QuoteQuote:
Second, outside of 2-3 specific area like video games, the heavy computation are done on server machines, not on desktop anymore.
Games are computationally expensive, but mainly for highly parallel tasks (which will be best performed on your graphics card). Mobile processors are faster than you seem to think (looks towards my nexus 7 with quad core 1.5ghz processors - only 3 execution ports per CPU though, so more like pentium 3 performance).

QuoteQuote:
Third point, remaining desktop machines cannot consume more resources because hardware didn't make much progress. The only gain that we had in past years with multiple core is extremely difficult to leverage and in most case is not done.
Hardware has made progress, and leveraging those gains is trivial.

QuoteQuote:
So now software companies do not care at all of desktop software at all. They provide services through the web. Apps on your phone are just another interface to access the web, no more.
You are talking about service providers (Facebook et al). They are not software companies.

QuoteQuote:
They still have the problem that computers didn't gained much performance theses years and that the number of cores too capped.
Those service providers are paying the electricity bills. They care. If those services are slow for you, upgrade your internet connection.

QuoteQuote:
So everybody and their dog in software has a cluster of servers (what we call farms) where you can have hundred/thousand of machine computing all the time mostly statistics to know the client better and present them better ads to make more money. As most services on the internet are free, they have to find a way to make money.
What are your thoughts on chem-trails?

QuoteQuote:
In a sence we exchanged the need to buy powerfull computers with our privacy. We pay with our personnal data, and get in exchange lot of ads. We are supposed to share and do more on more on the internet so we give more and more data ! SmartPhones are just that: a way through we give even more of ourselves ! Share your localization with your GPS, share your contacts, post your feelings on facebook or forums ! Where are you at each time of day? What time do you spend eating, in traffic jam, what hour do you wake up, when do you to bed, how often do you to restaurant ?

I remember reading an article not so long ago with a new software targetted at human resources. It scan the web looking for online identities and avatars. It use ways to consolidate the false identities, the fake name and all together to finally link it to the real person or at least its main google or facebook account. It make a psychological profile out of it to see how you behave. Are you a kind of destructive troll online? (Bad if you want to hired!) Do you loose too much time? What are your politicals preferences? Overall you be a good employe and fit the comporate culture? All of that is computed, analysed etc and the HR just need to give your information to the system to get a repport of everything you did online. At least that their promise...
Yeah, chem trails. (And maybe stop putting your details in the hands of others?)

---------- Post added 11-02-14 at 11:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
But enough, now for many items, is more than the best just a few years ago. My Windows tablet has a processor I could not even have dreamed of in my desktops even 5 or 6 years ago. It already does everything I need to do better, faster than I need to do it. I continue to upgrade just because I am a gadget addict, not because I need the new toys. Much the same holds for our current DSLRs.
Yes and no. It's not the CPU that's improved (an atom or arm CPU is basically a faster pentium 3), it's the memory speed improvement, the addition of an on die graphics processor, the switch to solid state storage from spinning disks, and improvements to the compiler tool chain.
11-02-2014, 04:30 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by starjedi Quote
Maybe one day the iPhone camera will match up the current DSLR , say 5d mkiii or nikon 810, haha.
Well I just bought my first smartphone and didn't make the camera important in descision. So I got a very tiny sensor wich you have the sensor multiplied with 10 to go to Full Frame comparison and only 7,2 mp. I use it mostly in 16:9 setting, so I only use 5,4 megapixel (and those are tiny, 1,12 micron) wich compares to 300k pixels in surfase to the K-5 (18 pixels to each K-5 pixel). Even the Original Q had sensils that where 80% larger then the one in my Sony Xperia Z Ultra (other models of this series have 20 megapixel of the same sort).

The lens is 2,96mm and f2.4 and the sensor goes down to iso40 and in daylight you get a nice image for social media. Didn't do a print yet on A4, but I guess that that would be stretching to the limit, but possible

Made this one tonight, Hotdog Bunn image with kitten, at home with video ledlight support (my smartphone lacks some kind of strobe or flash).


This image used a sensor size: 1746x2469 pixels and that is 1,96 x 2,77mm wich is 0,626 percent of the surface of the named D810.

I guess that a few years from now the sensor will grow inside smartphones and images will get better. To the point people don't even take a seperate camera for their holidays.
11-02-2014, 11:49 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
Not quite sure what you mean by backwards?? To be sure, hardware lagged software for decades, finally to catch up about 10+ish
years ago. Since then, it's really not been necessary to upgrade a computer every year or two. My primary laptop for a long
time was a Dell latitude built in 2001 and running Windows 2000. It served me well until 2009.

I agree we're getting close to a similar plateau with the digital photography revolution. Affordable, pro-sumer cameras that can
take images suitable for poster printouts are here, now. Few people need even that capability. Everything beyond, for most,
is icing.
What I meant is that just a few years ago, many people wanted the most powerful computer they could afford. Those computers are more powerful than today's smartphones and tablets, but many folks have essentially abandoned the PC/Mac platforms and use strictly mobile for their personal computing needs.

---------- Post added 11-03-14 at 01:55 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is more the contrary: hardware stopped its evolution 10 years ago. We just manage it to make it smaller and smaller, not faster. Even through the moore law continue to apply, we don't manage anymore to boost computer frequencies and the multicore promises failed for classic desktop applications: we are stuck to 4 core while most software is unable to really benefit of it.
The performance per watt has increased dramatically. And while the frequency - the mhz - of CPU's has not changed much, the instructions per cycle has improved.

Its a shame that most software does not take good advantage of 4-core (and greater) CPU's, but that is changing. Some games do. I downloaded the newest version of DxO Optics Pro 10, and its PRIME noise reduction maxes out all 8 of my CPU cores.

Graphics cards have improved dramatically over the last 10 years - they are now programmable for other functions. Things like physics and video encoding run very well on GPU's by Nvidia and AMD.

11-03-2014, 12:10 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
What I meant is that just a few years ago, many people wanted the most powerful computer they could afford. Those computers are more powerful than today's smartphones and tablets, but many folks have essentially abandoned the PC/Mac platforms and use strictly mobile for their personal computing needs.

---------- Post added 11-03-14 at 01:55 AM ----------



The performance per watt has increased dramatically. And while the frequency - the mhz - of CPU's has not changed much, the instructions per cycle has improved.

Its a shame that most software does not take good advantage of 4-core (and greater) CPU's, but that is changing. Some games do. I downloaded the newest version of DxO Optics Pro 10, and its PRIME noise reduction maxes out all 8 of my CPU cores.

Graphics cards have improved dramatically over the last 10 years - they are now programmable for other functions. Things like physics and video encoding run very well on GPU's by Nvidia and AMD.
maybe you're right but I for photo editing using a bright room. The program is very heavy load on your computer - PC.
on my notebook the speed is much less
when you have large amounts - just a PC it is the cardinality, speed and performance!
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