Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-20-2008, 12:51 AM   #31
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 593
QuoteOriginally posted by pinkpants Quote
I know this thread will result in a barrage of angry comments, but this needs to be said for all those who stand before the decision to purchase their first DSLR.
If you make a comment, then expect to have it commented on by those that disagree with your statement. Just because you say something that *you* believe is correct does not make it so. I do believe you have made some erroneous statements and have expectations far above what would be considered reasonable.

QuoteQuote:
I recently made this choice and ended up with the K20D for several reasons. I liked the idea of being able to make really large prints, which I had done in the past with my film SLR (also a pentax). I also liked the weather sealing, the digital preview, the ease of use and the neat little features like having an IR receiver on both the front and back of the camera and being able to fine tune the LCD. As I researched cameras I got the impression that Pentax was THINKING about things and creating features that are useful to photographers. This is in some ways true, but after having extensively played with 2 K20Ds (yes - my first one went back!), I feel that this camera is not as well thought out as it could be.
One man's meat is another man's poison. What to you is not so perfect is to me better than the competition and *more* perfect to my requirements, especially at this price point.

QuoteQuote:
Immediately after purchasing the K20D I became annoyed with several limitations of the camera. Most of these had to do with the implementation of the flash system. One reason I bought a DSLR was for the hotshoe and the ability to use flash creatively and off camera.

1) As soon as I popped my lovely old M-series 28mm lens on the camera, the wireless flash option was disabled. Why, Pentax, why???
Maybe something to do with the AF needing to work in conjuction with the wireless flash mode that they feel is not a good idea with a manually focused lens?

QuoteQuote:
2) High speed sync is not available with an off camera flash if the on camera flash is set to discharge. (even when the camera's flash is simply in commander mode). You need another AF360 or 540 on the camera body to do this. Also, high speed sync is only available in PTTL mode, which doesn't work worth a damn. The paltry 180th X-sync speed is surpassed by many inferior cameras.
You hit the nail on the head there, "many inferior cameras"

QuoteQuote:
3) Not such a big deal for me because I like to set everything manually, but PTTL is USELESS. I have tried in numerous situations and consistently get flat underexposed results.
PTTL is not perfect, but it is not useless. If there are highly reflective surfaces in the photo, the flash will expose accordingly and therefore underexpose. This is only natural. Also, many walls are white as are ceilings and as such the camera will expose to 18% grey which is normal exposure behaviour. I shot a wedding which did not have walls of white and as the ceilings were high they did not affect exposure. My photos were fine. A tip you may want to use when in doors with white walls and/or ceilings or any highly reflective surfaces is to set the camera or flash to +1 EV to compensate for these highly reflective surfaces.

QuoteQuote:
4) When you use the IR remote, wireless flash works great - unless you set the camera to take a photo 3 secs after pressing the remote (so you're not pointing a remote at the camera in your photo). Choose this setting and bam -- no wireless flash. Why, Pentax, why??

5) Bulb with the IR remote. It's great that you now need to attach nothing to your camera to use the bulb setting without moving the camera during an exposure. In the old days every cheap remote release cable had a feature to lock the remote button so that you could walk away from the camera during a long exposure. Unfortunately, when you use the IR remote for this with the K20D you must press and hold the remote while aiming at the camera until your exposure is complete. And this is easier said than done during any exposure longer than a few seconds. Why not have a setting to press once to open the shutter and once again to close? Would that be so hard to do, Pentax??
Maybe just an oversight, and it does happen with all manufacturers, but there may also be a reasonable explanation as to why they did it this way. Hardly anything to lose sleep over. I did have to do a few 60sec exposures myself last year on the K10D and I did note that this was a pain to do, but I got over it.

[/QUOTE]6) The LCD calibration feature doesn't work so well. I tried and tried, but couldn't get my LCD screen calibrated to match my macbook's calibration.[/QUOTE]

Is this such a big deal? I don't really care if the LCD screen is a tad out of calibration, but the colours look fine to me as they are. Again, nothing to lose sleep over.

QuoteQuote:
These things annoyed me and made me think the engineers at Pentax weren't really thinking about things as much as I had originally believed. However from reading about people's experiences with the K10D, I got the impression that Pentax listened to what customers wanted and made changes accordingly with firmware updates where possible. So I decided to stick with this system and let Pentax know about what I wanted changed.
They did listen to their customers. Pentax was not going to include the AF adjustments for the K20D but they did so because we asked them to. AF adjustments are much, much more important to me than if the IR needs to be kept on whilst taking a long exposure. I guess my priorities, and everyone else's, are different to yours.

QuoteQuote:
Unfortunately, my first K20D was returned after taking around 5 - 600 shots. This is when I first decided to test the camera's continuous shooting ability. Yes, it did 3 fps, but I was never able to get more than 16 frames in a burst before the camera slowed down. Even at the smallest JPG setting with the lowest quality. (And no, I did not have RAW+ JPG selected). I also felt like the camera was just a little slower than it could be displaying images after shooting. I called Pentax, and the technician said the camera must be defective. So I returned it to the shop and got a new one. At this point I was torn between sticking with the K20D and just shelling out the extra cash for a D300. I tried out a new K20D quickly in the shop, and when it made it to 20 fps I stopped, thinking - ok, the first one was truly defective. At home with the camera I later discovered that its continuous shooting is somewhat erratic, and never able to surpass 25 continuous shots at 3fps. I decided this issue was not really that big a deal, so I kept the camera.
Do a search on the D300 and find that those cameras also have issues. You seem to want perfect, but perfect does not exist no matter what camera you choose.

QuoteQuote:
Now for the camera's final and worst flaw: High ISO performance. Here's where people will start yelling, I'm sure. Everyone seems to think this camera is noiseless, but it is extremely noisy above 1600 ISO.
Who are these people that said that the camera was noiseless??? Lead me to any post, article, statement where someone said that the K20D was noisleless!! Especially a statement where they said that it was not noisy above ISO1600. Every report that I have seen says that up to and including ISO1600, the K20D was *very* good, but that ISO3200 was acceptable. Nowhere has there been anyone suggesting that above ISO1600 was good. Please do not exaggerate claims to bias your statements in order to make the K20D look worse than what anyone has said.

QuoteQuote:
This wouldn't be a problem since the obtrusive chroma noise can easily be removed in post processing (Pentax's in camera NR doesn't seem to work very well - firmware update, Pentax???).
Then it isn't such a big deal if it can be removed in post process anyway!

QuoteQuote:
However, starting at ISO 2500, my new body displays pretty bad horizontal banding. This banding appears even in RAW mode, so no hope for a firmware fix here! I will post some samples. I looked through some of the test photos I took with the first body I had and found it in one of them as well - though not as pronounced even though the shot was terribly underexposed. This shot is the final one in the series.
If this is what you call banding, then it looks bloody good to me. I am sorry, I just cannot see any banding.

QuoteQuote:
So there you have it. My complaints about the K20D. Will I be taking it back again and getting the D300 or something else? No. I've decided to stick with it and work within this camera's limitations for two reasons. I have already taken some amazing shots with it and I know it is capable of producing stunning results. I'll just stay at ISO 2000 and below. (with proper exposure, 1600 looks amazingly good!)
One wonders why there are any complaints from you??

A highly regarded French magazine, Chasseur d'Images, says that the image quality from the K20D is at least as good as the D300.

QuoteQuote:
The second reason is the wonderful lenses available at much more reasonable prices than the competitors' offerings. Try getting a weather sealed Nikon lens for under $1000. OK Pentax, I hope you read this and update the K20D's firmware soon!
There maybe some minor firmware updates, but you will probably have to wait until the K30D for any major improvements.

05-20-2008, 05:49 AM   #32
Not Registered
Guest




I am affraid that I am getting lost with this thread. First, I think that the noise that the OP showed is not the most unpleasant noise one can find particularly considering that it is ISO2500 (just think in the blotchie noise in the not too far past). Actually, to underexpose shoots in low light is not (only) a problem of the camera, the operator has equal or bigger fault, particularly when using M-lenses. Second, I think that the off camera trigger with M lenses complain is a little bit touching the limits on complaining for the heck of it. As somebody said a 10-20 dollars trigger solve the problem. Third, IMO the tone of the first post was not the tone of somebody wanting to start a polite discussion. It was pretty much a rant of somebody who thinks that 1000 USD will buy the perfect camera and realizes that it is not. It is either that or simply a trolling attempt. Since the OP is new here I would say is only the first option.

And regarding the lack of cappability of Canon cameras to use old lenses, I think that people should give the information right. You cant use manual canon lenses without the use of an impossible to find adaptor but you CAN use Pentax lenses (in cropped camera bodies), M42 lenses, Olympus OM lenses... in a Canon body with the right (and cheap) adapters. Many people (myself included) have had this notion of manual lenses compatibility wrong for a long time.
05-20-2008, 05:56 AM   #33
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,934
What I would say is that the K20D is a DSLR which is totally not suiting for your shooting requirements, e.g., accurate advanced/external/pre-flash TTL metering, flexibility wireless control, low high ISO noise and so on.

Pentax's P-TTL has known to be tending to underexposure and inconsistent. If you want the best flash system, you should choose Nikon or at least Canon. If you want lowest ISO noise and details, you should choose Canon Full Frame or the Nikon D3 and so on.

Firmware update won't help as it has not much to do to rectify the "problems" you mentioned. The only way is to get another DSLR model or even more than one model which can suit *your needs*.
05-20-2008, 03:47 PM   #34
Veteran Member
roentarre's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 11,794
I think k20d is a good camera. It is more about what equipment suits your style shooting. Before making a conclusion on k20d, you should try out the competition brands before making a permature assessment on a camera without trying out other cameras of similar level.

Flash is never easy and there are a lot of improvements in k20d already. You mentioned an important area for further improvement but it is not something that most of the users really focused on.

I had a couple of messages regarding Canon 450 D which could be a better camera than k20d. I doubted these users were at the level of your experience to know whether flash feature needs improvement at all...

05-20-2008, 06:28 PM   #35
Veteran Member
morfic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 428
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
What I would say is that the K20D is a DSLR which is totally not suiting for your shooting requirements, e.g., accurate advanced/external/pre-flash TTL metering, flexibility wireless control, low high ISO noise and so on.

Pentax's P-TTL has known to be tending to underexposure and inconsistent. If you want the best flash system, you should choose Nikon or at least Canon. If you want lowest ISO noise and details, you should choose Canon Full Frame or the Nikon D3 and so on.

Firmware update won't help as it has not much to do to rectify the "problems" you mentioned. The only way is to get another DSLR model or even more than one model which can suit *your needs*.
In all fairness, P-TTL is not worse than Canon's E-TTL (II) (With DA or KA or FA lenses i mean), with Canon's version you still get to comp your flash exposure until it's "right", it's merely the full power flash on manual lenses that is "odd". (Since it could still get into a range where we can then comp to get the exposure we deem "right", if it only tried to pre-flash (Canon did so when i used my M42 Takumars or Adpatall lenses, which is why i keep saying it could be done in firmware) and not simply goes "Manual lens? Hm...ok, 100% it is!".)

Last edited by morfic; 05-20-2008 at 06:34 PM.
05-20-2008, 07:05 PM   #36
Pentaxian
jgredline's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LosAngeles, Ca.
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,530
Pentaxpoke is correct....This is more of a case where you are underexposing...Learn to use your camera before you bash it.
Secondly, I see this brought out the resident troll ''rice high''
05-20-2008, 07:16 PM   #37
Veteran Member
PentaxPoke's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,411
I'm thinking that the OP was trolling as well. It is clear there was no intention of a dialog.
05-20-2008, 07:48 PM   #38
Veteran Member
aegisphan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 815
Something is not right about it. You are using the Flash in manual mode (especially when you say the P-TTL is useless). Yet, when you get the underexposed result, you say it's the system's fault. It's more likely your fault in this case since the control is up to you. Even in P-TTL mode, if you get under-exposed result, you should learn to compensate (or maybe you require beyond the flash limit). Unfortunately, I never tried the "godly" Nikon's flash system so I can't say for sure, but I'm happy with all my flash shots so far. And it's funny that you say the P-TTL is useless. I don't really know what to say.

For the use of the old M-series lens, I think you forget that these lenses lack electronic contact. There is no info to work with for the camera/flash to expose correctly. It's not just a Pentax problem, other systems do have problem with these manual lenses.

It's also nice to test out the high ISO performance. But if you're really disappointed with the ISO 2500 performance, then don't shoot at that ISO. Since you're going to use flash (I assume so since most of your complaints are about the flash system), I don't even think you need to get the ISO up to that level.

05-20-2008, 07:56 PM   #39
Pentaxian
jgredline's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LosAngeles, Ca.
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,530
QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I'm thinking that the OP was trolling as well. It is clear there was no intention of a dialog.
Really you nailed it in your first response to this fellow and aegisphan shared my thoughts exactly...For such an ''experienced'' photographer he still needs to learn how to read a histogram....By the way, your images are incredible...
05-20-2008, 07:58 PM   #40
Pentaxian
jgredline's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: LosAngeles, Ca.
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,530
QuoteOriginally posted by pinkpants Quote
I hope you read this and update the K20D's firmware soon!
I am afraid that unless you learn to read your histogram and expose to the right for your high ISO shots, no firmware adj will help.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, dslr, exposure, firmware, flash, ir, iso, k20d, lcd, mode, pentax, photography
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale - Sold: Pentax K20d PERFECT CONDITION (CONUS) sznajder Sold Items 3 07-04-2010 11:35 AM
The perfect phone companion for Pentax weatherproof k10D, K20D, K200D!! raider General Talk 3 02-23-2009 02:53 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:54 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top