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12-01-2014, 11:14 AM   #226
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
But the K mount doesn't have the degree of problem mirrorless designs can ... short registration distance, light coming in at angles from a wide lens.
so tell us, dear clackers... if mirrorless mount designs are so bad, how come the a6000 demolishes the k-3 in actual testing?

the bare sensor comparisons between those two cameras are nearly equal...

the fa50 costs nearly $100 more than the sony e50mm lens?

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12-01-2014, 11:40 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so tell us, dear clackers... if mirrorless mount designs are so bad, how come the a6000 demolishes the k-3 in actual testing?

the bare sensor comparisons between those two cameras are nearly equal...

the fa50 costs nearly $100 more than the sony e50mm lens?
first trick on price is look at a comparable lens - the DA50 is the comparison not the FA which is a 1.4 not a 1.8., it's also a 23 year old design that hasn't seen an update in coatings (or a rear coating being added) for the digital age. the sony is a brand new design. (the DA 50 1.8 likely is as good or better at a price at least $100 less than the Sony if not more.

As interesting as sony bodies are they fall down on lenses and aren't the best at service either. great sensors though for others to use

I need to look at the rest of the comparison more closely to critique it
Don't get me wrong I like mirrorless but if you are going to try and slam Pentax performance better get the comparison correct first.

If you compare it they have the same score but the Sony Vignettes a lot more (with other marginally better areas covering the big difference)
12-01-2014, 12:25 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so tell us, dear clackers... if mirrorless mount designs are so bad, how come the a6000 demolishes the k-3 in actual testing?

the bare sensor comparisons between those two cameras are nearly equal...

the fa50 costs nearly $100 more than the sony e50mm lens?
The question was about vignetting, was it not? Pretty clear to see which holds up better.
12-01-2014, 12:45 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so tell us, dear clackers... if mirrorless mount designs are so bad, how come the a6000 demolishes the k-3 in actual testing?

the bare sensor comparisons between those two cameras are nearly equal...

the fa50 costs nearly $100 more than the sony e50mm lens?
I compared DA50 f/1.8 & Sony E 50mm f/1.8... They did both get the same score on DxO (25) with pretty similar performance. Sony has little worse T stop, noticably worse vigneting, a bit more resolution. In France google shopping say to me I have to paye 249€ for the Sony and 149€ for the Pentax. Looking at B&H the Pentax is 133$ and the Sony 248$. This is not far from behing twice more expensive.

If we want to compare, the Sony E 50mm f/1.8 doesn't justify its price, that for sure... This is funny because usually Pentax almost always get bad score at Dx0... but the DA50 f/1.8 is one of the lenses that fare the best ! Bad example for you osv.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-01-2014 at 12:57 PM.
12-01-2014, 03:09 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
first trick on price is look at a comparable lens - the DA50 is the comparison not the FA which is a 1.4 not a 1.8., it's also a 23 year old design that hasn't seen an update in coatings (or a rear coating being added) for the digital age. the sony is a brand new design. (the DA 50 1.8 likely is as good or better at a price at least $100 less than the Sony if not more.
hard to believe that people would want a plastic fantastic over an fa50, but given it's weak performance, i see your point.

da50: 12P-Mpix, .2% distortion, -0.8ev, 2Tstop, best at f/2.8, $133
e50: 13P-Mpix, 0 distortion, -1.6ev, 2.1Tstop, best at f/1.8, $248

Tests and reviews for the lens Pentax smc DA 50mm f1.8 mounted on Pentax K-3 - DxOMark
12-01-2014, 04:16 PM   #231
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I find it hard to handle anything smaller than the K5. Then my hands get really shaky especially when I'm trying to zoom on a distant object. Also those little camera look like a leaf trying to hold up a tree when you are using long lenses. I like small cameras for travel and everyday street photography but for some things you need a little bulk. That's why I think DSLR are not going anywhere for a while.
12-01-2014, 04:20 PM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by hjoseph7 Quote
I find it hard to handle anything smaller than the K5. Then my hands get really shaky especially when I'm trying to zoom on a distant object. Also those little camera look like a leaf trying to hold up a tree when you are using long lenses. I like small cameras for travel and everyday street photography but for some things you need a little bulk. That's why I think DSLR are not going anywhere for a while.
I guess the rebuttal I have is that just cause you have lost the mirror and gained an EVF doesn't mean that you have to make a small camera. There are plenty of examples of decent sized mirrorless cameras. I have a feeling in the long run, the majority of cameras will have an EVF, even if they still maintain a standard SLR shape and size (which happens to be pretty ergonomic for shooting larger lenses).
12-01-2014, 06:00 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I compared DA50 f/1.8 & Sony E 50mm f/1.8... They did both get the same score on DxO (25) with pretty similar performance. Sony has little worse T stop,
the sony has a higher t-stop number, is that better or is it worse? gotta look it up.

the vignetting issue is probably the only reason that they both scored 25's, because the sony glass is better everywhere else, including wide open.

the point here is that clackers made the moronic claim that there is something wrong with mirrorless camera mounts, and i'm showing that is not correct.

there is nothing inherently superior about the k-mount; it's a very old design, that some people on this forum think pentax will abandon, if they ever deliver a ff camera.

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 05:25 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess the rebuttal I have is that just cause you have lost the mirror and gained an EVF doesn't mean that you have to make a small camera. There are plenty of examples of decent sized mirrorless cameras. I have a feeling in the long run, the majority of cameras will have an EVF, even if they still maintain a standard SLR shape and size (which happens to be pretty ergonomic for shooting larger lenses).
people are complaining about the size of the nx1, so maybe that's a good example of a bigger mirrorless?

the cipa stats for october just came out, and the only segment with yearly sales growth is mirrorless cameras? 107% & 129%?? slr is at 76% & 83%??

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201410_e.pdf

12-01-2014, 07:05 PM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
the sony has a higher t-stop number, is that better or is it worse? gotta look it up.

the vignetting issue is probably the only reason that they both scored 25's, because the sony glass is better everywhere else, including wide open.

the point here is that clackers made the moronic claim that there is something wrong with mirrorless camera mounts, and i'm showing that is not correct.

there is nothing inherently superior about the k-mount; it's a very old design, that some people on this forum think pentax will abandon, if they ever deliver a ff camera.

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 05:25 PM ----------



people are complaining about the size of the nx1, so maybe that's a good example of a bigger mirrorless?

the cipa stats for october just came out, and the only segment with yearly sales growth is mirrorless cameras? 107% & 129%?? slr is at 76% & 83%??

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201410_e.pdf
Higher t stop is worse (it's like aperture).

I was thinking more of something like the GH-3 or GH-4 from Panasonic with regard to largish mirrorless.
12-01-2014, 07:29 PM   #235
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I hated mirrorless until I owned a Sony A6000. And then I realised DSLR is in big trouble. We can cook up the best story but it is happening around us, consumers are buying mirrorless...

Pentax better be fast in coming up another mirrorless with it's tough as nail weather sealed DNA. I hope to see it happening soon with these features; articulated selfie LCD, 4k videos, 120fps 1080p, wifi control, defeatable AA filter, 5 Axis sensor shift, A6000 192 points phase detection, and with current K3 stills quality.

I will still keep my K5IIS for macro work, but for trekking etc A6000 makes so much more sense for stills and videos.
12-01-2014, 07:35 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
the sony has a higher t-stop number, is that better or is it worse? gotta look it up.

the vignetting issue is probably the only reason that they both scored 25's, because the sony glass is better everywhere else, including wide open.

the point here is that clackers made the moronic claim that there is something wrong with mirrorless camera mounts, and i'm showing that is not correct.

there is nothing inherently superior about the k-mount; it's a very old design, that some people on this forum think pentax will abandon, if they ever deliver a ff camera.

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 05:25 PM ----------





people are complaining about the size of the nx1, so maybe that's a good example of a bigger mirrorless?



the cipa stats for october just came out, and the only segment with yearly sales growth is mirrorless cameras? 107% & 129%?? slr is at 76% & 83%??



http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201410_e.pdf

Japan is not the rest of the world in fact the camera market there has always been different (not just cameras electronics too amongst other things) CIPA numbers have always been out of whack with the world afaik
Add to that mirror less is coming from a significantly smaller unit number than DSLRs so it's a false logic you are arguing
Certainly mirror less has chipped away at DSLRs but it has also absorbed a huge portion of what would have been the middle to high compact market (cell phones having absorbed the vast majority of the low end portion)
I'm quite happy with my mirror less but to be honest I could just as easily have been happy with a DSLR like the k3 or a ff like the DF
I doubt we will see the demise of the DSLR in the short term there are only really 3 manufacturers left as it sits (canikon and Pentax) Pentax fills a market niche the two behemoths just set the whole market direction (either you are differentiating like Ricoh via medium format and advanced amateur pieces or through developing in the mirrorless arena
Eventually canikon will get serious about mirrorless and if they do it before anyone becomes as market dominant as they are then things won't change much
People buy brands they know and are comfortable with
If you aren't canikon that is your struggle as total market they would still have the lions share
12-01-2014, 08:52 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so tell us, dear clackers... if mirrorless mount designs are so bad, how come the a6000 demolishes the k-3 in actual testing?

the bare sensor comparisons between those two cameras are nearly equal...

the fa50 costs nearly $100 more than the sony e50mm lens?

Truly, OSV, I don't know how you're tolerated around here: pro-Sony, anti-Pentax, unable to understand basic concepts like phase detect autofocus in another thread.


Have a look at your own 'comparison' (ridiculous because 50mm is *not* a wide lens, even in Sony land).


I said a short mount distance leads to vignetting (and in fact aberration) problems on wide lenses which is why Leica tries to compensate with tilting microlenses. Check out for example The Online Photographer: Two Reasons...


Now, to your weird example.


The Pentax has -0.8 eV, the Sony A6000 has -1.6eV!

Last edited by clackers; 12-01-2014 at 09:08 PM.
12-01-2014, 09:15 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Japan is not the rest of the world in fact the camera market there has always been different (not just cameras electronics too amongst other things) CIPA numbers have always been out of whack with the world afaik
there are worldwide sales numbers in there, and that's what i quoted.

it is true that not everyone is a cipa member, but the trending is inescapable.

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Add to that mirror less is coming from a significantly smaller unit number than DSLRs so it's a false logic you are arguing
no, the point that was proven was that mirrorless sales have increased significantly, while slr sales are not growing in a comparable manner... not a canikon issue or question.

---------- Post added 12-01-2014 at 08:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Truly, OSV, I don't know how you're tolerated around here: pro-Sony, anti-Pentax, unable to understand basic concepts like phase detect autofocus in another thread.
oh, you mean the thread where you didn't know that the lea4 had pdaf?

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I said a short mount distance leads to vignetting (and in fact aberration) problems on wide lenses which is why Leica tries to compensate with tilting microlenses. Check out for example The Online Photographer: Two Reasons...
from your link:

"Leica's (and other manufacturers') wide-angle rangefinder lenses (those with a focal length shorter than approximately 35mm) tend to have a quite short exit-pupil-to-imaging-plane distance."

who cares about wide rangefinder lenses? you certainly aren't going to be using 'em on your k-3.
12-01-2014, 09:30 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
no, the point that was proven was that mirrorless sales have increased significantly, while slr sales are not growing in a comparable manner... not a canikon issue or question.
Isn't this obvious? everyone in the world knows as 'mirrorless' is the new technology and 'SLR' is the mature technology. It is normal to see sales of new technology increasing while sales of mature technology decrease over time.
12-01-2014, 10:54 PM   #240
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See illustration:

Company A sells 100 units in Year 1, and 101 units in Year 2 = 1% increase.

Company B sells 5 units in Year 1, and 6 units in Year 2 = 20% increase.

% without numbers may be misleading.
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