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12-02-2014, 01:11 AM   #241
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The excitement these days revolves around the latest mirrorless accomplishment or development. Or thats the way it seems to me. Mirrorless cameras aren't even the majority market share, but they are sure grabbing off the publicity. I thought the Canon interview at photokina was specific that they were developing a large format mirrorless. Since they already have an APS sensor mirrorless, this could only mean a FF mirrorless or medium format mirrorless. Nikon, well... Nikon seems to be asleep. Pentax, well Pentax gave up on large format mirrorless after the K01.

The K3 is quite an innovative DSLR, make no mistake about it. The -3ev focusing exceeds what most DSLRs and mirrorless can do. and the very quiet shutter is a marvel. 14 bit files - very nice compared to my Sony 12 bit files.

I managed to get approval to shoot inside an old wooden 3-floor building dating from the 1890's. I was in there with a friend, me shooting with the K3/tripod. My friend shooting with a Sony A7S/tripod. I was shooting at 1600 iso and below depending on windows, while he was shooting at 60,000 iso and below with a camera that can shoot to 400,000 iso. His FF camera is significantly lighter and smaller than my APS K3. I think thats a problem for Pentax.

Model to model, i see more development in each generation of mirrorless cameras than i see progress in DSLRs. The K3 does me fine for the time being, but I suspect that its the last DSLR i'll ever buy.


Last edited by philbaum; 12-02-2014 at 01:21 AM.
12-02-2014, 01:29 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
the sony has a higher t-stop number, is that better or is it worse? gotta look it up.

the vignetting issue is probably the only reason that they both scored 25's, because the sony glass is better everywhere else, including wide open.
T-stop is the true light the lens is able to transmit. What 2.1 T stop mean that althrough the e50 is an f/1.8 lens some light is lost, at f/1.8 it let enter only the equilalent of what a perfect f/2.1 lens would let enter.

Overall, the Sony lens let a little less light enter than the DA50.

This a key notion if you are interrested in low iso. For example from DxO the FE50mm f/1.8 & FE 35mm 2.8 do not loose any light and have a T stop of respectively 1.8 & 2.8. That strange because no lens is perfect but let say theses are really good at this level.

Then if we look at the FE 70-200 f/4 lense, the T-stop is 4.7. The zoom is a worse performer meaning it increase the gap between the different advertized apperture toward the 2 previous primes. No one should use the 70-200 f/4 for low light needs or sports.
12-02-2014, 03:54 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I managed to get approval to shoot inside an old wooden 3-floor building dating from the 1890's. I was in there with a friend, me shooting with the K3/tripod. My friend shooting with a Sony A7S/tripod. I was shooting at 1600 iso and below depending on windows, while he was shooting at 60,000 iso and below with a camera that can shoot to 400,000 iso. His FF camera is significantly lighter and smaller than my APS K3. I think thats a problem for Pentax.
Yep agreed with this statement. The A7/A7r is significantly lighter and smaller than most DSLR systems and there will be lost of people (like myself) who want this portability that DSLR's currently don't offer. I have a friend who sold all his FF canon gear and now shoots A7r and I am planning on doing the same (although I will keep my FA43 and Takumar 55 to shoot on the A7). If Pentax had a good mirror-less offering then I would definitely consider it as an option (unfortunately I don't see the K01/Q system as meeting my requirements).

So in answer to the question - Are SLR's dying? My view is I don't think so and there will always be photographers who want a SLR, but the mirrorless market is likely to be a massive growth area over the next 10 years.
12-02-2014, 04:04 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The excitement these days revolves around the latest mirrorless accomplishment or development. Or thats the way it seems to me. Mirrorless cameras aren't even the majority market share, but they are sure grabbing off the publicity. I thought the Canon interview at photokina was specific that they were developing a large format mirrorless. Since they already have an APS sensor mirrorless, this could only mean a FF mirrorless or medium format mirrorless. Nikon, well... Nikon seems to be asleep. Pentax, well Pentax gave up on large format mirrorless after the K01.

The K3 is quite an innovative DSLR, make no mistake about it. The -3ev focusing exceeds what most DSLRs and mirrorless can do. and the very quiet shutter is a marvel. 14 bit files - very nice compared to my Sony 12 bit files.

I managed to get approval to shoot inside an old wooden 3-floor building dating from the 1890's. I was in there with a friend, me shooting with the K3/tripod. My friend shooting with a Sony A7S/tripod. I was shooting at 1600 iso and below depending on windows, while he was shooting at 60,000 iso and below with a camera that can shoot to 400,000 iso. His FF camera is significantly lighter and smaller than my APS K3. I think thats a problem for Pentax.

Model to model, i see more development in each generation of mirrorless cameras than i see progress in DSLRs. The K3 does me fine for the time being, but I suspect that its the last DSLR i'll ever buy.
He may have been shooting at iso 60,000, but his results won't necessarily be that great. The A7s does an amazing job of holding on to dynamic range, even at high iso, as per DXO Mark, but as far as noise/SNR, it is the same at iso 60,000 as the K3 would be at iso 25,000 -- probably usable with noise reduction, but not great. It does look as though Sony has inflated the iso numbers of the A7s quite a bit, so at iso 51,000, the camera is only shooting at iso 38,000.

12-02-2014, 05:34 AM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I managed to get approval to shoot inside an old wooden 3-floor building dating from the 1890's. I was in there with a friend, me shooting with the K3/tripod. My friend shooting with a Sony A7S/tripod. I was shooting at 1600 iso and below depending on windows, while he was shooting at 60,000 iso and below with a camera that can shoot to 400,000 iso. His FF camera is significantly lighter and smaller than my APS K3. I think thats a problem for Pentax.
There 5EV difference between 1600 & 60000 isos. That's a huge difference... That the difference between 1/20s shoot and a 1/640s shoot for example. Even if the A7s guy had a slower lens and the K3 guy tried little lower speeds, that doesn't really justify such high difference to me.

At best the A7s 6400isos shoot will look the same as the K3 1600 shoots once processed. But the 60K isos shoot will just look shitty to thoses 1600 isos K3 shoot.

A guy with a P&S but managing isos 100 (still subjects...) with longer exposure time would have got the best results. Even with moving subjects, if we are speaking of interiors, adding the proper lighting gear you would still get better results with anything that can trigger a flash.

I'm really interrested to have more details here because without explanation it really look like at one of you did take very different kind of shoot than the other one (and then isos setting comparison is irrelevant) or there one guy that really mis-choosed his settings.

I would really avoid iso 60K even on A7s... No point buying fancy camera and get photos out of it that look worse than what a P&S typically achieve.
12-02-2014, 06:25 AM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
See illustration:

Company A sells 100 units in Year 1, and 101 units in Year 2 = 1% increase.

Company B sells 5 units in Year 1, and 6 units in Year 2 = 20% increase.

% without numbers may be misleading.
this is the reality of the CIPA numbers

Yes Mirror-less is growing by leaps and bounds (new categories that are successful always show huge % the first few years, having been there selling and managing you should have seen Beta growth curves initially and DVD growth was enormous on Units but on dollars it dropped pretty rapidly so only showed marginal growth after the first few years.
DSLR sales over the last few years have lost Olympus and Sony completely as they are both now entirely Mirror-less. It's a mature market for DSLR, growth from newcomers and people moving up but since the original numbers are so daunting in comparison growth looks smaller as a percentage. Will the SLR disappear? I have no doubt that it will become a niche product over time but that won't be in the next 5 years. or even 10. Mirror-less will however capture a bigger percentage of the market as time goes on. but even there the market for traditional cameras will shrink as Phones continue to improve as cameras and ultimately end up meeting the majorities needs. most people could not care any less about the things we here all take very seriously

---------- Post added 2nd Dec 2014 at 08:31 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess the rebuttal I have is that just cause you have lost the mirror and gained an EVF doesn't mean that you have to make a small camera. There are plenty of examples of decent sized mirrorless cameras. I have a feeling in the long run, the majority of cameras will have an EVF, even if they still maintain a standard SLR shape and size (which happens to be pretty ergonomic for shooting larger lenses).
X-T1 with a battery grip, the OMD with a grip, the Panasonic GH4 with a grip - all a fair bit smaller than the K3/Grip or even worse D800 grip or 5D3 grip combo, but definitely on the large side for Mirror-less and pretty well balanced with the longer lenses designed for the system. maybe not so hot with the huge lenses out there but all cameras are too small for those - thats why they have tripod collars and Gitzo/Manfrotto et al are in business
12-02-2014, 07:08 AM   #247
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And Now For Something Completely DIfferent....

A basic analysis of the financial results of SONY continue for the fourth quarter to show the outright hemorrhaging of cash from the Photo division. Rumors of deep discussions in reducing losses are rampant in English and Japanese financial circles. The Mirrorless line (an advocacy play for SONY sensors and an attempt to squeeze out DSLRs) is not working in a commercial sense (sustainable and making money) since the higher end user demands a decent viewfinder and the ability to "tweak" AF results. It is driving a conversation about mirrorless (a7s in general), but with the M4/3 and other units, a road to nowhere... Hasselblad will be the next strategic mover. SONY is a DMW (Dead Man Walking) in photo (highend). Their glass has been bottle-grade since the SRT101 and similars were replaced with the tripe.... It does however make Nikon's glass look better... IMHO...

---------- Post added 12-02-14 at 09:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The excitement these days revolves around the latest mirrorless accomplishment or development. Or thats the way it seems to me. Mirrorless cameras aren't even the majority market share, but they are sure grabbing off the publicity. I thought the Canon interview at photokina was specific that they were developing a large format mirrorless. Since they already have an APS sensor mirrorless, this could only mean a FF mirrorless or medium format mirrorless. Nikon, well... Nikon seems to be asleep. Pentax, well Pentax gave up on large format mirrorless after the K01.

The K3 is quite an innovative DSLR, make no mistake about it. The -3ev focusing exceeds what most DSLRs and mirrorless can do. and the very quiet shutter is a marvel. 14 bit files - very nice compared to my Sony 12 bit files.

I managed to get approval to shoot inside an old wooden 3-floor building dating from the 1890's. I was in there with a friend, me shooting with the K3/tripod. My friend shooting with a Sony A7S/tripod. I was shooting at 1600 iso and below depending on windows, while he was shooting at 60,000 iso and below with a camera that can shoot to 400,000 iso. His FF camera is significantly lighter and smaller than my APS K3. I think thats a problem for Pentax.

Model to model, i see more development in each generation of mirrorless cameras than i see progress in DSLRs. The K3 does me fine for the time being, but I suspect that its the last DSLR i'll ever buy.
The K-01 was a decent idea executed poorly and designed to look like a toy.... Shoehorn a 36mpFF in it and K-3 grade software and features, and we can all go and discuss something more meaningful like photo techniques.... And lose the white/blue model. Looks like a kitchen appliance...
12-02-2014, 07:14 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
A basic analysis of the financial results of SONY continue for the fourth quarter to show the outright hemorrhaging of cash from the Photo division. Rumors of deep discussions in reducing losses are rampant in English and Japanese financial circles. The Mirrorless line (an advocacy play for SONY sensors and an attempt to squeeze out DSLRs) is not working in a commercial sense (sustainable and making money) since the higher end user demands a decent viewfinder and the ability to "tweak" AF results. It is driving a conversation about mirrorless (a7s in general), but with the M4/3 and other units, a road to nowhere... Hasselblad will be the next strategic mover. SONY is a DMW (Dead Man Walking) in photo (highend). Their glass has been bottle-grade since the SRT101 and similars were replaced with the tripe.... It does however make Nikon's glass look better... IMHO...
Sorry to hear that... to me, the more competition, the better...
...and it looks like it's not the only division which is hemorrhaging, by the way...

12-02-2014, 07:28 AM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
A basic analysis of the financial results of SONY continue for the fourth quarter to show the outright hemorrhaging of cash from the Photo division. Rumors of deep discussions in reducing losses are rampant in English and Japanese financial circles. The Mirrorless line (an advocacy play for SONY sensors and an attempt to squeeze out DSLRs) is not working in a commercial sense (sustainable and making money) since the higher end user demands a decent viewfinder and the ability to "tweak" AF results. It is driving a conversation about mirrorless (a7s in general), but with the M4/3 and other units, a road to nowhere... Hasselblad will be the next strategic mover. SONY is a DMW (Dead Man Walking) in photo (highend). Their glass has been bottle-grade since the SRT101 and similars were replaced with the tripe.... It does however make Nikon's glass look better... IMHO...

---------- Post added 12-02-14 at 09:13 AM ----------


The K-01 was a decent idea executed poorly and designed to look like a toy.... Shoehorn a 36mpFF in it and K-3 grade software and features, and we can all go and discuss something more meaningful like photo techniques.... And lose the white/blue model. Looks like a kitchen appliance...
If I were a Ricoh exec, I'd make a strong overture to Sony around buying out their interest in Olympus. Sony just might like the cash. Here's what Ricoh would get:

Class-leading IBIS technology
Class-leading JPEG engine
Class-leading CDAF (and maybe on-sensor PDAF, too)

Marry those capabilities with all that Pentax/Ricoh brings to the table and you can easily see how they could quickly be the leader in mirrorless cameras, not to mention the extensions in the more traditional camera lines.
12-02-2014, 07:33 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by drypenn Quote
See illustration:

Company A sells 100 units in Year 1, and 101 units in Year 2 = 1% increase.

Company B sells 5 units in Year 1, and 6 units in Year 2 = 20% increase.

% without numbers may be misleading.
Using just the MILC and dSLR global shipments as reported by CIPA, MILC was 24% of total shipments; dSLR was 76% of total shipments. Bear in mind that nominal (numbers of) MILC shipments more than doubled while nominal dSLR shipments declined 17%, therefore last year MILC had something like 11% of total shipments.

To me, a larger piece of a shrinking pie is a better deal than a shrinking piece of a shrinking pie - but that doesn't make it a BIG deal.
12-02-2014, 07:35 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
If I were a Ricoh exec, I'd make a strong overture to Sony around buying out their interest in Olympus. Sony just might like the cash. Here's what Ricoh would get:

Class-leading IBIS technology
Class-leading JPEG engine
Class-leading CDAF (and maybe on-sensor PDAF, too)

Marry those capabilities with all that Pentax/Ricoh brings to the table and you can easily see how they could quickly be the leader in mirrorless cameras, not to mention the extensions in the more traditional camera lines.
That would be an historically typical acquisition for Ricoh - that's how they grew their copier business to #1.

And I've had something like that in the back of my mind as part of the 'Plan' for a couple of years now.
12-02-2014, 08:13 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
A basic analysis of the financial results of SONY continue for the fourth quarter to show the outright hemorrhaging of cash from the Photo division. Rumors of deep discussions in reducing losses are rampant in English and Japanese financial circles. The Mirrorless line (an advocacy play for SONY sensors and an attempt to squeeze out DSLRs) is not working in a commercial sense (sustainable and making money) since the higher end user demands a decent viewfinder and the ability to "tweak" AF results. It is driving a conversation about mirrorless (a7s in general), but with the M4/3 and other units, a road to nowhere... Hasselblad will be the next strategic mover. SONY is a DMW (Dead Man Walking) in photo (highend). Their glass has been bottle-grade since the SRT101 and similars were replaced with the tripe.... It does however make Nikon's glass look better... IMHO...

---------- Post added 12-02-14 at 09:13 AM ----------


The K-01 was a decent idea executed poorly and designed to look like a toy.... Shoehorn a 36mpFF in it and K-3 grade software and features, and we can all go and discuss something more meaningful like photo techniques.... And lose the white/blue model. Looks like a kitchen appliance...
Agreed to some degree, add an optional EVF as well (items like this make an Olympus bid make some sense since they already have the tech) redesign it to look like an LX and have different EVF's available (WL Sports,Normal) . Offer it in FF and APSC variants
12-02-2014, 09:00 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by shaolen Quote
another year or two and mirrorless will kill DSLR. Only a small group of pros will still be holding onto them but even this market will be invaded as we're already seeing with samsungs NX1
I have never seen or handled an NX1, but from what I read, it is quite the camera. But I don't think that is the Mirrorless Camera most of the people in this thread are talking about. It is the one you hold out in front of you and wobble and weave around while you are trying to get a good, steady shot. It's like trying to get a good picture with your cell phone. Just my opinion.
12-02-2014, 09:23 AM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
He may have been shooting at iso 60,000, but his results won't necessarily be that great. The A7s does an amazing job of holding on to dynamic range, even at high iso, as per DXO Mark, but as far as noise/SNR, it is the same at iso 60,000 as the K3 would be at iso 25,000 -- probably usable with noise reduction, but not great. It does look as though Sony has inflated the iso numbers of the A7s quite a bit, so at iso 51,000, the camera is only shooting at iso 38,000.
Exactly what I was thinking - don't judge it by the set up instead judge it by the result.
12-02-2014, 09:42 AM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This a key notion if you are interrested in low iso. For example from DxO the FE50mm f/1.8 & FE 35mm 2.8 do not loose any light and have a T stop of respectively 1.8 & 2.8. That strange because no lens is perfect but let say theses are really good at this level.
of course there is light loss in a lens, we just don't see it there because this testing is apparently done on camera jpegs that have corrections applied... it's the only explanation for zero light loss.

the real question is, if pentax corrected it's lens vignetting in-camera, why is the sony showing so much vignetting... did they simply correct it less than pentax did? the sony 35/2.8 does have significant vignetting, and there is evidence that the correction is written to the raw as well.

---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 08:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Yes Mirror-less is growing by leaps and bounds (new categories that are successful always show huge % the first few years, having been there selling and managing you should have seen Beta growth curves initially and DVD growth was enormous on Units but on dollars it dropped pretty rapidly so only showed marginal growth after the first few years.
DSLR sales over the last few years have lost Olympus and Sony completely as they are both now entirely Mirror-less.
the only reason that dvd sales dropped was because of new technology that competes with it... i was in the dvd creation business for years, i know all about it... everything is online now.

sony is still selling dslrs, that use a-mount lenses, that can be mounted on sony mirrorless cameras with the lea4... you get pdaf with that adapter, it has a mirror in it.

it's not as sophisticated as the k-3 autofocus system.

---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 08:52 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rimfiredude Quote
I have never seen or handled an NX1, but from what I read, it is quite the camera. But I don't think that is the Mirrorless Camera most of the people in this thread are talking about. It is the one you hold out in front of you and wobble and weave around while you are trying to get a good, steady shot. It's like trying to get a good picture with your cell phone. Just my opinion.
we are referring to mirrorless cameras that have evf displays, so they are handled just like dslrs with an ovf... you put your eye up to the viewfinder.

shoot only with the viewfinder, except maybe when you want to tilt the rear lcd display for a ground or overhead shot.
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