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12-03-2014, 11:09 AM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'd really like to know how many dSLR buyers buy a second dSLR.
That's a good question but I imagine few DSLR owners own more than one at a time. I don't know whether Nikon was inferring 50% of DSLR owners never buy a second lens or whether additional lenses are bought at a 50% rate compared to bodies. Could be either, I suppose, though if few people own more than one body at a time (only my guess) then the answers must be almost the same either way.

My own anecdotal experience (which is probably worth close to nothing) is I rarely see an ILC user with something other than what looks to be a basic kit zoom on a low to mid-end body.

12-03-2014, 12:03 PM   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
once again, clackers, you just contradicted your own quote

b&h lists 78 brand new ff a-mount lenses, why are you claiming that they are "old"
SLR Lenses, DSLR Lenses | B&H Photo Video

the autofocus versions all have pdaf with the lea4 adapter.

why do we have to keep educating you on the state of modern photography?

---------- Post added 12-03-2014 at 09:19 AM ----------



are you having a reading comprehension problem with the sony pdf

camera revenues for all manufacturers have been falling, but you single out sony like it's the only entity with declining sales

good grief! sounds like platform bigotry to me.

---------- Post added 12-03-2014 at 09:55 AM ----------



hmmm... b&h doesn't list any pentax full frame f/2.8 zoom lenses, it looks like you have to go tamron/sigma, and then there are only three choices??

SLR Lenses, DSLR Lenses | B&H Photo Video

is that list wrong? does pentax actually make any ff f/2.8 lenses?

if not, what will you do if pentax actually releases a ff k-mount body, and you want f/2.8 glass?

sony has four a-mount f/2.8 zooms, that give you pdaf with the laea4 adapter, and there are eleven a-mount f/2.8 zooms total, if you include aftermarket:

SLR Lenses, DSLR Lenses | B&H Photo Video

sounds to me like the a7 series is actually a much better choice for f/2.8 lenses than anything that pentax offers.
Pentax doesn't currenlty have a full frame camera. Who cares about full frame zooms?

But if Pentax releases a full frame SLR, they will surely release f2.8 zooms to go with it. That's the expectation.

The lack of native FE mount f2.8 zooms is a problem. Alpha mount lenses are a kludge at best to cover Sony till they can actually design some lenses for the new mount. It certainly isn't a long term solution.
12-03-2014, 12:09 PM   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pentax doesn't currenlty have a full frame camera. Who cares about full frame zooms?

But if Pentax releases a full frame SLR, they will surely release f2.8 zooms to go with it. That's the expectation.

The lack of native FE mount f2.8 zooms is a problem. Alpha mount lenses are a kludge at best to cover Sony till they can actually design some lenses for the new mount. It certainly isn't a long term solution.
Exactly, I'm sure Sony will eventually get there, for the a Mount they had loads of legacy Minolta designs to work from "(a few of which were quite good) the e mount they are starting from scratch
12-03-2014, 12:19 PM   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
*snip*

hmmm... b&h doesn't list any pentax full frame f/2.8 zoom lenses, it looks like you have to go tamron/sigma, and then there are only three choices??

SLR Lenses, DSLR Lenses | B&H Photo Video

is that list wrong? does pentax actually make any ff f/2.8 lenses?

if not, what will you do if pentax actually releases a ff k-mount body, and you want f/2.8 glass?

sony has four a-mount f/2.8 zooms, that give you pdaf with the laea4 adapter, and there are eleven a-mount f/2.8 zooms total, if you include aftermarket:

SLR Lenses, DSLR Lenses | B&H Photo Video

sounds to me like the a7 series is actually a much better choice for f/2.8 lenses than anything that pentax offers.
There's also the Tokina ATX-Pro 80-200 2.8 (I believe it's discontinued, but it exists all the same).

I'd say that the two mockups at Photokina are FF 2.8 zooms, and if (if) Pentax comes out with a FF I bet those lenses will be released more or less at the same time, so no sweat there...

The fact that a FF camera is a better choice for f/2.8 lenses is... well.. obvious.
Don't see many constant f/2.0 zooms on APS-C, but let's not turn this into an equivalence thread...

12-03-2014, 12:30 PM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
camera revenues for all manufacturers have been falling, but you single out sony like it's the only entity with declining sales
Actually the related divsion revenue increased for Canon and Ricoh or also Fuji... So Sony may not be alone but they are far from being the best performers.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-03-2014 at 12:40 PM.
12-03-2014, 12:35 PM - 1 Like   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I look at the market place right now and it seems like Canon and Nikon are on very different tracks than Sony is. Every new "big" camera from Canon and Nikon -- the 7D Mk II, the D750 -- are SLR type and while they have gotten a little smaller over time, they are what they are.

On the other hand, it seems that Sony generates a huge amount of buzz with every new iteration of the NEX series of cameras. Whether crop sensor or, full frame, it doesn't seem to matter. Is it the smaller size, or the EVF? I'm not sure. I am just questioning at this point whether the days of the traditional SLR are numbered. Are we going to see SLRs limited to a small number of professional shooters who happen to use fast telephoto lenses?

It feels like this makes a big difference to a company like Pentax. Pentax has made the decision not to pursue the mirrorless market with a larger sensored market, I guess think that people will either get an SLR or a Q.

I wonder if the SLR market is dying and if Pentax should be exploring mirrorless options, rather than hanging on to the mirror.

Don't get me wrong. I like a good OVF. I haven't used an EVF that I like better than an OVF, but it just feels like the market is shifting and maybe Pentax is going to be way behind again, just as they were when the "digital revolution" started and then the "full frame revolution" started.

Just some thoughts, but wondered what others think?
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think the question will be answered pretty soon. I think we are on the edge of a technology shift in cameras. The Samsung NX-1 may never sell very well, but it will go down as a significant camera in history. Instead of a dedicated imaging processor it has a 5 core ARM processor that is a huge jump in power over traditional imaging processors. 28MPs at 15 frames per second while handling AF. Accord to one HD video review it is reading the entire sensor at up to 30fps, processing and downsampling in camera....

In the very near future the resolution, DR, color, & refresh rates of the EVF will exceed what the human eye can perceive. When that happens the OVF will be inferior. What technology can DSLR manufacturers bring to the OVF to keep it superior to the EVF? Being able to see exposure, DoF, histogram, actual focus, color shifts in real time through an EVF has real advantages. Can DSLR manufacturers bring these features to the OVF? ....
.
True story. There were a dozen people waiting at a station. A bus arrived and everyone got on but 3 men in suits. An argument started between the 3 men and the bus driver. The driver got back on the bus and it departed, leaving the 3 men. Their names were Pentax, Nikon and Canon.
12-03-2014, 12:53 PM   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
That's a good question but I imagine few DSLR owners own more than one at a time. I don't know whether Nikon was inferring 50% of DSLR owners never buy a second lens or whether additional lenses are bought at a 50% rate compared to bodies. Could be either, I suppose, though if few people own more than one body at a time (only my guess) then the answers must be almost the same either way.

My own anecdotal experience (which is probably worth close to nothing) is I rarely see an ILC user with something other than what looks to be a basic kit zoom on a low to mid-end body.
The question then is what kind of lens/body this 50% buy ? Don't think the FF mirrorless is the target for theses guys.

Today is APSC DSLR in number of sales, tomorrow maybe mirorless APSC.

The FF body still keep more expensive body, more expensive and bigger lenses. The majority will not choose such thing.

Now the enthousiast that want to stay small may very well be served with mirorless APSC or m4/3 but will unlikey want FF mirrorless if it means more bulk and slower speed lenses. For now Sony seems to be the only FF mirrorless and that's what they actually providing: bulky and slow lenses (expensive too).

The pro? Honestly they'll have what their agency pay for them or what look the most pro for the other. For now, size still mean you look more serious. and there no real adventage to mirrorless then...
12-03-2014, 01:03 PM - 1 Like   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think the question will be answered pretty soon. I think we are on the edge of a technology shift in cameras. The Samsung NX-1 may never sell very well, but it will go down as a significant camera in history. Instead of a dedicated imaging processor it has a 5 core ARM processor that is a huge jump in power over traditional imaging processors. 28MPs at 15 frames per second while handling AF. Accord to one HD video review it is reading the entire sensor at up to 30fps, processing and downsampling in camera.

In the near future I think you will be able to create presets on your computer (film emulations if you like) and upload them to your camera. Shoot RAW + your own preset. Someone like Sony will buy DxO or VSCO and implement their processing/film packs into the camera. Fuji is getting a lot of positive response to its film emulation modes. Link your DSLR to you tablet. Use your tablet to control the in-camera RAW processing.
Who is really after 15fps? On the few occasions I use the feature on K3 I reduce the fps to remove the bloat. Maybe say a few action shoots would enjoy that... But not sure they'll like the AF that much in the end.

As for preset, I think this is gimick. Either you are after post processing your image seriously and you'll prefer the comfort of a big screen and the possibility to adapt the rendering to the current needs. Either you are not it that much and you'll have one rendering you'll keep for everything, most often the default one from the camera. Tablet are typically slow compared to destop compute, offer quite small screens, lack the software but also the input devices to be efficiant (keyboard/mouse). Touch is nice, but is not fast/efficiant. It work for simple tasks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
In the very near future the resolution, DR, color, & refresh rates of the EVF will exceed what the human eye can perceive. When that happens the OVF will be inferior. What technology can DSLR manufacturers bring to the OVF to keep it superior to the EVF? Being able to see exposure, DoF, histogram, actual focus, color shifts in real time through an EVF has real advantages. Can DSLR manufacturers bring these features to the OVF?

The future of the DSLR depends on advances in the OVF. Providing more information and a better user experience is the only way the DSLR survives.
OVF give you exposure, DoF, actual focus, color shifts already:
- you can directly see where the focus is from your eyes. Also the AF system typically put a red dot of something to show where the focus is
- DoF can be instantly seen with proper trigger button.
- OVF warn you in case of over exposure and can show where the exposure is compared to 18% grey
- If the lens is not color neutral... The ovf will display it as the OVF is through the lens.

This give us with the histogram as the big advantage for EVF.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-03-2014 at 01:18 PM.
12-03-2014, 01:13 PM   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The question then is what kind of lens/body this 50% buy ? Don't think the FF mirrorless is the target for theses guys.

Today is APSC DSLR in number of sales, tomorrow maybe mirorless APSC.

The FF body still keep more expensive body, more expensive and bigger lenses. The majority will not choose such thing.

Now the enthousiast that want to stay small may very well be served with mirorless APSC or m4/3 but will unlikey want FF mirrorless if it means more bulk and slower speed lenses. For now Sony seems to be the only FF mirrorless and that's what they actually providing: bulky and slow lenses (expensive too).

The pro? Honestly they'll have what their agency pay for them or what look the most pro for the other. For now, size still mean you look more serious. and there no real adventage to mirrorless then...
I think there is one advantage... automatic focusing. Us Pentax users, apart from those using a K-01, are dealing with a simulated focus confirmation via a separate module. Already, some MILC manufacturers have found a way to get similar focus speed with CDAF or, better yet, hybrid focus systems. No calibration needed, ever. Now can they get down to accurate focusing in very low light? Panasonic claims -4EV on one of their bodies but I seriously doubt that's real. Regardless, they are making big strides in low light AF.
12-03-2014, 01:26 PM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Who is really after 15fps? On the few occasions I use the feature on K3 I reduce the fps to remove the bloat. Maybe say a few action shoots would enjoy that... But not sure they'll like the AF that much in the end.

*snip*
Ren Cockwell. And a few sport photographers.
I'd say that 5-6 would be more than enough for the average user, including advanced amateurs and a good amount of pros.
15 * 25MB(*) = 375MBps... come on...

(*) Actually I believe that's underestimated... it should be about the size of a K5, 16MP, 14bit RAW...
12-03-2014, 01:39 PM   #326
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I think there is one advantage... automatic focusing. Us Pentax users, apart from those using a K-01, are dealing with a simulated focus confirmation via a separate module. Already, some MILC manufacturers have found a way to get similar focus speed with CDAF or, better yet, hybrid focus systems. No calibration needed, ever. Now can they get down to accurate focusing in very low light? Panasonic claims -4EV on one of their bodies but I seriously doubt that's real. Regardless, they are making big strides in low light AF.
Automatic qualibration you mean?

Still I remember a link provided at some point with Sigma explaining that a good lens for DSLR was not a good lens for mirrorless in term of focus speed and accuracy.

Contrast AF go back and forth and it allow it to not need qualibration. Still to track a subject or to aquire focus fast, you need your lens to make lot of very move, analyse the constrast move again and so on. Sigma explain it either require a big strong motor unsuitable to a small lens design or a very light focussing group. Typicall actual lenses are not made for contrast AF.

This last point mean you need to change to dedicated lenses design when you go mirrorless and need fast AF. Your legacy gear is just unsuited. And the new gear has a bigger constraint than before meaning trade-off in the design.

We already saw what AF implyed in term of lens size/capacity in the end. Just look at M 135 f/2.5 size... And current 135mm FF designs.

What kind additionnal constraint this kind of thing would put on a professionnal lenses really made for action shooting? For now, I don't think there the lenses that manage that seriously with the typical focal length and apperture and action shooter is expecting for any mirrorless body. Maybe in 5-10 years. For now, we are not there yet. And if you rely on hybrid focussing system... You can still get back/front focus problems.
12-03-2014, 01:49 PM   #327
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Automatic qualibration you mean?

Still I remember a link provided at some point with Sigma explaining that a good lens for DSLR was not a good lens for mirrorless in term of focus speed and accuracy.

Contrast AF go back and forth and it allow it to not need qualibration. Still to track a subject or to aquire focus fast, you need your lens to make lot of very move, analyse the constrast move again and so on. Sigma explain it either require a big strong motor unsuitable to a small lens design or a very light focussing group. Typicall actual lenses are not made for contrast AF.

This last point mean you need to change to dedicated lenses design when you go mirrorless and need fast AF. Your legacy gear is just unsuited. And the new gear has a bigger constraint than before meaning trade-off in the design.

We already saw what AF implyed in term of lens size/capacity in the end. Just look at M 135 f/2.5 size... And current 135mm FF designs.

What kind additionnal constraint this kind of thing would put on a professionnal lenses really made for action shooting? For now, I don't think there the lenses that manage that seriously with the typical focal length and apperture and action shooter is expecting for any mirrorless body. Maybe in 5-10 years. For now, we are not there yet. And if you rely on hybrid focussing system... You can still get back/front focus problems.
Yes, this was the situation a couple years ago but no longer as the industry is moving fast to on-sensor PDAF (speed) coupled with CDAF (accuracy). This hybrid system does NOT have front/back focus issues, either. Though I'm not all that versed in Olympus hardware, I think they are making the claim that legacy lenses focus just fine with the OM1 which has the new hybrid AF system.
12-03-2014, 02:52 PM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pentax doesn't currenlty have a full frame camera. Who cares about full frame zooms?

But if Pentax releases a full frame SLR, they will surely release f2.8 zooms to go with it. That's the expectation.
you mean, that's the hope

sony has a roadmap for over 20 fe-mount lenses in 2015, but i don't see a complete list of all the upcoming glass:
Sony Lens Roadmap 2015 Plus New FE Full-frame Lenses

sony seems to be more into quality primes than fast zooms, which is fine by me... most zooms are weak sauce.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The lack of native FE mount f2.8 zooms is a problem. Alpha mount lenses are a kludge at best to cover Sony till they can actually design some lenses for the new mount. It certainly isn't a long term solution.
a-mount lenses most certainly are a long-term solution for the a7 platform.

the a7r+lea4=625g
pentax k-3 =1249g

still only half the weight of a k-3, and you get pdaf.

among others, the lea4 gives you the ability to mount the tamron 150-600, which isn't available in a pentax mount.
12-03-2014, 03:34 PM - 1 Like   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you mean, that's the hope

sony has a roadmap for over 20 fe-mount lenses in 2015, but i don't see a complete list of all the upcoming glass:
Sony Lens Roadmap 2015 Plus New FE Full-frame Lenses

sony seems to be more into quality primes than fast zooms, which is fine by me... most zooms are weak sauce.



a-mount lenses most certainly are a long-term solution for the a7 platform.

the a7r+lea4=625g
pentax k-3 =1249g

still only half the weight of a k-3, and you get pdaf.

among others, the lea4 gives you the ability to mount the tamron 150-600, which isn't available in a pentax mount.
It's really not hard to look these things up and get the right figures.

K-3: 799 g fully loaded

PENTAX - K-3
12-03-2014, 03:44 PM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
It's really not hard to look these things up and get the right figures.

K-3: 799 g fully loaded

PENTAX - K-3
thanks for the correction, what i saw was with a kit lens, even tho the pic was body-only:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k3/pentax-k3A.HTM
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