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12-03-2014, 03:48 PM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
True story. There were a dozen people waiting at a station. A bus arrived and everyone got on but 3 men in suits. An argument started between the 3 men and the bus driver. The driver got back on the bus and it departed, leaving the 3 men. Their names were Pentax, Nikon and Canon.
Can you put a reasonably long lens on any mirrorless, say 300mm and pan the thing. Can you follow something? Does it smear, does it keep real time? Can you see enough to focus it manually as you pan? Or can the AF mechanism focus on it?

Next question. Can I buy it for $800 or less with a kit lens?

12-03-2014, 04:12 PM - 1 Like   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Who is really after 15fps? On the few occasions I use the feature on K3 I reduce the fps to remove the bloat. Maybe say a few action shoots would enjoy that... But not sure they'll like the AF that much in the end.
As usual you are missing the point. 14bit RAW files for a 28MP sensor at 15fps represents more processing power than any other camera on the market..... Several times more processing power than a Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s. The point of post is that the camera industry changing rapidly. Nobody cares if you need 15fps or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
OVF give you exposure, DoF, actual focus, color shifts already:
- you can directly see where the focus is from your eyes. Also the AF system typically put a red dot of something to show where the focus is
- DoF can be instantly seen with proper trigger button.
- OVF warn you in case of over exposure and can show where the exposure is compared to 18% grey
- If the lens is not color neutral... The ovf will display it as the OVF is through the lens.
Have you ever used a camera? What you see with your eyes is what the PDAF sensor sees. That may or may not be what the sensor records when the mirror lifts. With zoom lenses that suffer from focus shift or even prime lenses that suffer from focus shift with close subjects you can't calibrate your lenses to compensate. PDAF with AF adjust doesn't work in these situations.

The OVF can tell you what the meter says. You don't actually see the scene as you are going to record it. Digital doesn't use 18% gray. Modern cameras meter for 12%,or an sRGB brightness of 46%. Have you ever shot a snow covered landscape? I guess not or you would understand why the OVF is not showing you the scene as you see it even if the meter says the scene is properly exposed.

The lens color cast is not what I'm talking about. The human eye automatically adjusts to balance light temperature (color), but the sensor capturing the image can't do that. What you see through the OVF may or may not be the color/temperature of the light that the senor is recording. With EVF you see the actual effects of WB as you work.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
As for preset, I think this is gimick. Either you are after post processing your image seriously and you'll prefer the comfort of a big screen and the possibility to adapt the rendering to the current needs. Either you are not it that much and you'll have one rendering you'll keep for everything, most often the default one from the camera. Tablet are typically slow compared to destop compute, offer quite small screens, lack the software but also the input devices to be efficiant (keyboard/mouse). Touch is nice, but is not fast/efficiant. It work for simple tasks.
There are millions of people who disagree with you and pay big money to companies like VSCO, DxO Film Pack, Alien Skins, Nik Silver Efex.... As camera companies try to appeal to more people they will add more features. The ability to add these you your camera is a natural evolution of the existing filters. You may not want more control in you camera, but many people do. Most professionals use presets in their workflow. As cameras become powerful computers some of that workflow will move to the camera.
12-03-2014, 04:19 PM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
As usual you are missing the point. 14bit RAW files for a 28MP sensor at 15fps represents more processing power than any other camera on the market..... Several times more processing power than a Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s. The point of post is that the camera industry changing rapidly. Nobody cares if you need 15fps or not.
*snip*
Well... actually, the way I see it, it's the photographer's needs who should drive the innovation and not the engineer's nor the accountant's...
If I don't need 15fps nobody is going to convince me otherwise, and I don't give a dime if the industry is changing.
Or, better, I care, because this way I can get what I really need at a reduced price!
So I don't think Nicolas06 is missing the point here...
12-03-2014, 04:28 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Well... actually, the way I see it, it's the photographer's needs who should drive the innovation and not the engineer's nor the accountant's...
If I don't need 15fps nobody is going to convince me otherwise, and I don't give a dime if the industry is changing.
Or, better, I care, because this way I can get what I really need at a reduced price!
So I don't think Nicolas06 is missing the point here...
both you and he are missing the point.

i don't need wifi on a camera, but it's there because a small minority of people want it, just like a few people want 15fps.

nobody gets a camera that's 100% perfect, get over it

12-03-2014, 04:57 PM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Well... actually, the way I see it, it's the photographer's needs who should drive the innovation and not the engineer's nor the accountant's...
If I don't need 15fps nobody is going to convince me otherwise, and I don't give a dime if the industry is changing.
Or, better, I care, because this way I can get what I really need at a reduced price!
So I don't think Nicolas06 is missing the point here...
The problem is that consumers don't really know what they need. The only think they know what they want. I remember when color film was considered a gimmick. Real professionals only shot in B&W. The AF came and professionals again shunned it. It is what the photographer thinks he/she needs that drives the market.

Supply drives demand.... Demand for the iPhone in 2006 was ZERO. Its not until 2007 that Apple announces the iPhone and 99% of the population didn't know if they needed it or wanted, or what was even possible with a iPhone. Its not until people realized what it could do and saw it that demand was developed.

You may not be able to come up with creative uses for 15fps, but there are creative people who can figure out ways to use it and it really doesn't matter if you are ever convinced otherwise.
12-03-2014, 05:37 PM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
.... I remember when color film was considered a gimmick. Real professionals only shot in B&W. ...
A little OT but this caused a wave of nostalgia for me. My start as a serious photographer came in the very early 70s when I was stringing for the local paper, as I am sure was the case for many from my generation. Only Tri-X, all the time. Don't even submit anything else as the dunk tanks are all set for Tri-X and everything has to work for immediate wet printing.

I really feel old right now.
12-03-2014, 05:57 PM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Size is a very important part of ergonomics. True, my A7r has some really awkward button placements. But it's there when I need it because of it's size.
I agree, size does play an important part but going for small size just for the sake of small size and placing buttons in awkward places is no excuse. Typical of Sony to throw the baby out with the bathwater, they had to come out with a mark II revision of the camera just to move the shutter release where pentax would have put it in the first place!
12-03-2014, 06:19 PM - 1 Like   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Can you put a reasonably long lens on any mirrorless, say 300mm and pan the thing. Can you follow something? Does it smear, does it keep real time? Can you see enough to focus it manually as you pan? Or can the AF mechanism focus on it?&lt;br /&gt;<br />
&lt;br /&gt;<br />
Next question. Can I buy it for $800 or less with a kit lens?
I shot an airshow with my a7 and a 500mm mirror lens with no problems. Focusing manually was very easy with peaking. There is lag from realtime but if you are looking through the evf it is not apparent in good lighting because you are following what your eye sees as realtime. It is like saying you can,t follow a movie because it was filmed earlier. I had a 5n same deal with evf I used it with my tamron 500mm and was able to track a retail hawk with a bass. The lag only apparent in bad lighting where a DSLR ovf however would be difficult to focus manually because you can't see through the murky ovf in the dark.

I never used my 5n with large autofocus lens so I don't know how well it would focus.
The a7 on the other hand focuses superbly with my big Minolta beer cans and lea4 (not under $800 with kit but I'm sure the 5n and the ea1 would have Been close to the same accuracy from what I've read/seen.

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Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 12-04-2014 at 03:33 PM.
12-03-2014, 06:27 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
OVF give you exposure, DoF, actual focus, color shifts already:
- you can directly see where the focus is from your eyes. Also the AF system typically put a red dot of something to show where the focus is
- DoF can be instantly seen with proper trigger button.
- OVF warn you in case of over exposure and can show where the exposure is compared to 18% grey
- If the lens is not color neutral... The ovf will display it as the OVF is through the lens.

This give us with the histogram as the big advantage for EVF.
The red dot in my K-5 is laughably small compared to the actual size of the sensor... which means I have no clue what the camera has actually focused on. Only that it is somewhere around the center. One of these days I'm going to start only focusing with one of the sensors around it, and recompose from there, because those may be a bit smaller!


With PDAF sensors on the sensor the actual ones are much smaller, and the EVF can display which one exactly was focused on. Imagine center AF selected, which is a couple (of definable) sensors in the center. The one that actually is focused on is lit up, so if the subject is behind a tree, you can see if it's the tree or the subject you focused on. No chance with a K-5.


DoF preview can become rather dark and grainy, IIRC.


As long as the exposure meter is correct, and you've selected the right mode and whatnot... but you don't get an ACTUAL preview of the photo. And the eye has a much higher dynamic range than even the best sensor, so what looks fine may actually have too much contrast. An EVF will show you not just via a histogram but also because the screen actually only is able to show what the sensor sees.


Despite all of this I still prefer OVFs, but I haven't seen the NX1 in person yet. Maybe that's the first camera that can convince me of an EVF, but I am 100% sure that point will come, sooner or later.


QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
As usual you are missing the point. 14bit RAW files for a 28MP sensor at 15fps represents more processing power than any other camera on the market..... Several times more processing power than a Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s. The point of post is that the camera industry changing rapidly. Nobody cares if you need 15fps or not.
Actually the NX1 switches to 12 bit raw files when you shoot at 15 fps.


@LensBeginner: You may not need 15 fps, others do. People shooting sports, wildlife, action stuff, etc.
12-03-2014, 06:48 PM   #340
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Very few people "need" 15 fps. I don't care if they have it, but honestly, even the 8fps means that if you hold down the shutter button too long you end up with fourteen photos to delete. And there is no way you are shooting RAW in that situation either. Sports photographers don't shoot RAW. They don't have time to wade through 1000 photos and develop each one they like in their favorite RAW processor. When you shoot 15 fps, you shoot jpegs.

I guess it would be amazing to come back from an excursion with 80 photos of the same sunset -- all captured in 6 seconds time. Just think of how much time a photographer could save!
12-03-2014, 08:16 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Very few people "need" 15 fps. I don't care if they have it, but honestly, even the 8fps means that if you hold down the shutter button too long you end up with fourteen photos to delete. And there is no way you are shooting RAW in that situation either. Sports photographers don't shoot RAW. They don't have time to wade through 1000 photos and develop each one they like in their favorite RAW processor. When you shoot 15 fps, you shoot jpegs.

I guess it would be amazing to come back from an excursion with 80 photos of the same sunset -- all captured in 6 seconds time. Just think of how much time a photographer could save!
I burst quite often. To capture facial expressions, for group photos (someone is always blinking, getting a shot everyone is happy with is quite hard), when I know I am going to shake the camera and want a couple of photos, one of which will be fine, ...

As for sports... I believe the photos are sent to an editor while they are shooting, or rather a proprietary app creates thumbnails, which are sent to an editor who picks which raw files he wants to get sent, all while the photographer is still shooting. IIRC there was an interview with a Sports Illustrated photographer on This Week in Photo...
12-03-2014, 08:58 PM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by abmj Quote
A little OT but this caused a wave of nostalgia for me. My start as a serious photographer came in the very early 70s when I was stringing for the local paper, as I am sure was the case for many from my generation. Only Tri-X, all the time. Don't even submit anything else as the dunk tanks are all set for Tri-X and everything has to work for immediate wet printing.

I really feel old right now.
It was all we shot...... Color was for consumers.

The industry has gone through a lot of changes in the last 40 years. Some photographers have embraced the changes and found creative ways to use the new technology. Some photographers are Luddites and fight change every step of the way. I have never used HD video on my K-3... not ever to test it out. I don't need HD video, but I understand how the technology & improvements needed to implement HD video in my K-3 have improved other aspects of the camera.
12-03-2014, 11:34 PM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
the autofocus versions all have pdaf with the lea4 adapter..

What, the Alpha lenses, Osv? You'd be nuts to start buying into them.


Alpha is a corpse swinging in the wind, unfortunately for all those buyers who trusted Sony to look after the Minolta legacy.


The company has even appropriated the Alpha name, and given it to the E-mount line.


That's like coming home in desperation to the Mom and Dad who said they were always there for you, to find your room's been rented out.


As for that crap SLT adapter - lose 30% of your FF light, AF points clustered around the centre, all for an extra six ounces, two inches and an insulting $350, just to try and even the score with DSLRs and run decent telephotos?


Buy a 6D or D750 and be done with it!


QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you single out sony like it's the only entity with declining sales

It's not, but this needed to be pointed out to you with your boasting to Monochrome earlier in this thread.


Sony have released a truckload of new models over the past three years, but sales are down, not up, and will continue that way. That is all.




QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
sounds like platform bigotry to me.

No, I'm not anti-platform (with a NEX-7 and a NEX-3, I possibly own more Sonys than you), just anti-strident ignorance.

Last edited by clackers; 12-03-2014 at 11:39 PM.
12-04-2014, 12:17 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
As usual you are missing the point. 14bit RAW files for a 28MP sensor at 15fps represents more processing power than any other camera on the market..... Several times more processing power than a Canon 1DX or Nikon D4s. The point of post is that the camera industry changing rapidly. Nobody cares if you need 15fps or not.
High end smartphone have this kind of power or more (some include 8 cores) and they do take photos. Does it help them take better photos than an old 5D? No. I care that typicall DSLR allow me to take arround 700-1000 shoots in a row without needing to change the batery. I don't give a shit of the theoretical power a camera embbed as long as it does it job correctly and that it doesn't drain battery to much.



QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Have you ever used a camera?
While apparently we can wonder if I ever used a camera, we can wonder if you ever ask yourself before asking retorics questions.

You can take a look at my flickr stream. I don't pretend to be good, but you can figure out yourself if I'am able to take photos or not... Getting the exposure or focus right or not.

I mean, don't hesitate to explain that I have no clue at what I'am doing and my photo look like shit so you can finish here what you started in your previous post.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
What you see with your eyes is what the PDAF sensor sees. That may or may not be what the sensor records when the mirror lifts. With zoom lenses that suffer from focus shift or even prime lenses that suffer from focus shift with close subjects you can't calibrate your lenses to compensate. PDAF with AF adjust doesn't work in these situations.

The OVF can tell you what the meter says. You don't actually see the scene as you are going to record it. Digital doesn't use 18% gray. Modern cameras meter for 12%,or an sRGB brightness of 46%. Have you ever shot a snow covered landscape? I guess not or you would understand why the OVF is not showing you the scene as you see it even if the meter says the scene is properly exposed.
You conclude that a working mirrorless is going to be better than a faulty DSLR. I don't know for you, but I use an accurately working DSLR so I have no issue.

My only concern with exposure is where there too much dynamic range for the sensor and then usually I switch to HDR. I spend some time to process a few thousand photos not long ago from my trip in India and I never had exposure problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The lens color cast is not what I'm talking about. The human eye automatically adjusts to balance light temperature (color), but the sensor capturing the image can't do that. What you see through the OVF may or may not be the color/temperature of the light that the senor is recording. With EVF you see the actual effects of WB as you work.
When the camera doesn't get the white balence right, the photo typically look ugly. If I'am using an EVF I don't see how I can adjust white balence in a better way than if I do in post. I can first shoot a card or something as a reference first and adjust with that but EVF will not help a bit here. On a post processing software I can fine tune the white balance while it is less practical in camera. If I'am somewhere shooting a photo what I ask my camera to do is to record the picture accurately. I don't want to spend time post processing while shooting. I prefer to be more in what happen at the moment in the real life. That help to get an interresting shoot. At least I hope so.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There are millions of people who disagree with you and pay big money to companies like VSCO, DxO Film Pack, Alien Skins, Nik Silver Efex.... As camera companies try to appeal to more people they will add more features. The ability to add these you your camera is a natural evolution of the existing filters. You may not want more control in you camera, but many people do. Most professionals use presets in their workflow. As cameras become powerful computers some of that workflow will move to the camera.
I pay big money as you say for DxO and DxO Film pack so I'am very well aware you know. Even if one use preset in its workflow the question to ask is the ergonomics of a camera or the ergonomics of a computer is better to work fast an efficiantly to perform post-processing.

For me I find I can do more, faster with a computer. This is because a computer is typically:
- much more powerfull
- has instant access to many more settings/options
- has a big high quality screen that allow to better preview what you do.

Overall, all the fancy stuff a mirrorless is suposed much better than a DSLR rely on 1 single thing. What already existed for year in back screens in cameras (redevelop raw, change white balence or rendering) suddendly got as practical as with using a computer because you have the option in the view finder instead of the back screen.

While there some truth to it, spending time behind a EVF tweaking the settings just mean you are not aware at all as what happen arround you being practically blind. This is still true if using the backscreen even if you are too concentrated on it... But usually you don't spend that much time doing that... At least that's me... But maybe you typically post process your shoots in the camera or wish you could do... Let say it is a different practice.

We can disagree but I have to thank you overall to explain I don't have a clue of what I'am doing.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-04-2014 at 12:32 AM.
12-04-2014, 12:37 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I burst quite often. To capture facial expressions, for group photos (someone is always blinking, getting a shot everyone is happy with is quite hard), when I know I am going to shake the camera and want a couple of photos, one of which will be fine, ...

As for sports... I believe the photos are sent to an editor while they are shooting, or rather a proprietary app creates thumbnails, which are sent to an editor who picks which raw files he wants to get sent, all while the photographer is still shooting. IIRC there was an interview with a Sports Illustrated photographer on This Week in Photo...
I get the point for burst... The question is if your camera can burst anywhere from 1 photo per second to 1000 photos per second what setting will you use? 3 shoots per seconds? 8 shoots per second ? 15? Or why not even more 50 or 100 ? My understanding is that actions shooters prefer D7100 to K3 because of better tracking and faster AF (and lenses that are also actually faster to react). still D7100 has less FPS than K3. While 15FPS is a great technicall achievement (if it really work in practice), I'am not sure it is near as a practical improvement than going from 3 to 6 fps. With already 8fps for the K3, I'am not sure that there a big need for more outside of a few very specific cases.

As for the action shooter with the possibility to send the photo instantly to an editor, it does exist... For Olympics or things like that. I wonder through how many photographer actually use the feature in practice? 1 out of 1000 ?

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-04-2014 at 01:00 AM.
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