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12-05-2014, 03:04 AM   #391
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I think it was a only there because Sony wanted to get mirrorless with decent AF, and the only way to do that back then was using the mirror. Now that sensors are getting the PDAF sensors on the sensor, SLTs become obsolete. There is no advantage anymore.
Yeah apparently lens design for phase detect and contrast AF is different and need different lens design. They had to add phase detect for decent a-mount support.

12-05-2014, 09:17 AM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
No kidding. This subject is incredibly old and I'm sure everyone here knows what the SLT technology is all about. If it's so great, why does it appear Sony is throwing it away?
they are moving to mirrorless because that's where the market is headed, per the cipa data... it's the only growth sector.

the sony a99 was released a couple of years ago, rumors abound about a successor, including prototype pics, but nothing yet.

note that the a99 has a dxomark rating of 89, vs. the k-3 rating of 80... amazing, given that horrible slt mirror

of course it costs over twice as much as a k-3

---------- Post added 12-05-2014 at 08:33 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Those are all, bar the first maybe, advantages of a mirrorless camera as well... new ones have on-sensor PDAF (they can also do hybrid AF) I believe...
the a6000 has hybrid af: How it Works: Sony's Super-Fast Hybrid AF Explained

i think that the bottom line is that all camera mirror designs have become obsolete.
12-05-2014, 11:15 AM   #393
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How good does the hybrid AF work in low light? Cause the Samsung NX1 seems to have problems then...
12-05-2014, 12:22 PM   #394
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i've seen all kinds of claims wrt to low-light af performance... i'd like to believe that it hasn't reached it's peak potential yet.

that nx1 has kadajawi written all over it :-) me too, for that matter.

12-05-2014, 02:12 PM   #395
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To get a more global view I reached this article: LensVid Exclusive: What Happened to the Photography Industry in 2013? - LensVid.comLensVid.com

This is the summary of ALL camera sales for the whole industry in 2013. One can say... That obviouly 11 months old. Agree. Still I think this is interresting.

- In term of unit solds, mirrorless was 20% of market (DSLR + mirorless, not compacts) in 2012... But mirorless sales decrease more than DSLR sales in 2013... And only account for 18% for 2013 year sale.
- mirrorless are mostly successfull in Asia and Japan and not at all in US and Europe.
- mirrorless sales in 2013 where 1/3 of the IDC 2012 predictions.

Latests numbers tend to show that mirrorless resist better this year looking directly into CEPA website with something 25% of shipments depending of area.

Overall it look that mirrorless is the future as it is quite easy to get (cheaper to produce, smaller) but this is not the easy win many predicted back in time.

I don't think the trend over decreasing sales will be undone with the difficult economic climate we are in and the absence of innovation from the key players.

Mirrorless is not new and their sale didn't increase significantly in volume. It is not a new processor, few more MP that will change the trend.

To me look like more we need a booming global economy or real innovation like subtiential high iso gain (2Ev or more), possibility to change focus point after the shoot, possibility to record full 3D scene, recreate whole interractive world and visit them...

Something that would be really new and game changer !

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-05-2014 at 02:25 PM.
12-05-2014, 02:33 PM   #396
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
How good does the hybrid AF work in low light? Cause the Samsung NX1 seems to have problems then...
I don't think its generic, but there is a definite learning curve with regard to AF. Fuji had its problems, Pentax had its problems, until recently. Now its Samsung's turn :-)

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i've seen all kinds of claims wrt to low-light af performance... i'd like to believe that it hasn't reached it's peak potential yet.

that nx1 has kadajawi written all over it :-) me too, for that matter.
Pentax had problems in low light until they went to a -3ev AF capability. Then - problems solved and the K3 still amazes me in low light - its why i bought the upgrade and it has not disappointed me.

Please note that Sony claims the A7S AFs down to -4ev. My friend who has the A7R and A7S has not complained about low light focusing. I will ask him when i see him on Saturday night. My Nex 6 seems to focus quite well in shady conditions - probably not as good as my K3, but nothing to complain about. I should test them.

Last edited by philbaum; 12-05-2014 at 02:49 PM.
12-05-2014, 03:54 PM   #397
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@Nicolas: I think the problem is you think about mirrorless cameras the way they are now. Yes, if you go mirrorless you will suffer several trade-offs. But they will get smaller over time. A Sony A7S can see more than the human eye... so when it is dark, the A7S should make it possible to shoot, where a DSLR with that sensor would be problematic (unless you use the LCD screen). In future more sensors will reach that level. A Samsung NX1 has almost eliminated lag... maybe not in darkness, but the A7S sensor combined with NX1 processor/electronics wouldn't run into trouble as easily. AF performance is getting better... during daytime, and eventually at night.


What advantages to DSLRs remain? Size? Battery life? How about a 5D sized mirrorless camera that is basically made out of batteries? Making something BIGGER and HEAVIER is not a big issue (Canikon have proven that, no? 7D etc., why is a APS-C camera that huge? Pentax can fit similar tech and quality into the much smaller and lighter K-3). OLED TV makers CAN make flat TVs... but currently they only make curved TVs, because that's special and grabs attention. Eventually flat OLED TVs will appear.


That is why I doubt that DSLRs have a big future ahead. In the end mirrorless cameras can do the same and more.
12-05-2014, 04:05 PM   #398
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I look at the market place right now and it seems like Canon and Nikon are on very different tracks than Sony is. Every new "big" camera from Canon and Nikon -- the 7D Mk II, the D750 -- are SLR type and while they have gotten a little smaller over time, they are what they are.

On the other hand, it seems that Sony generates a huge amount of buzz with every new iteration of the NEX series of cameras. Whether crop sensor or, full frame, it doesn't seem to matter. Is it the smaller size, or the EVF? I'm not sure. I am just questioning at this point whether the days of the traditional SLR are numbered. Are we going to see SLRs limited to a small number of professional shooters who happen to use fast telephoto lenses?

It feels like this makes a big difference to a company like Pentax. Pentax has made the decision not to pursue the mirrorless market with a larger sensored market, I guess think that people will either get an SLR or a Q.

I wonder if the SLR market is dying and if Pentax should be exploring mirrorless options, rather than hanging on to the mirror.

Don't get me wrong. I like a good OVF. I haven't used an EVF that I like better than an OVF, but it just feels like the market is shifting and maybe Pentax is going to be way behind again, just as they were when the "digital revolution" started and then the "full frame revolution" started.

Just some thoughts, but wondered what others think?
In a way it is It is killed by the ever improving cellular cameras. They are getting better every day. And getting your images out in the new social media is fast which is what counts nowadays.
I do have a new Toshiba wifi card of 16 Gb at $30 a pop. In a recent dinner, I told all my guests to access the images I just took in my vintage K20D. All they need to do is to view it in their cell or tablet was by typing in a code of 12345678. That was it.
It helps in rolling back some of the advantage of the new type of cameras that we see everywhere.


Daniel

12-05-2014, 05:24 PM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@Nicolas: I think the problem is you think about mirrorless cameras the way they are now. Yes, if you go mirrorless you will suffer several trade-offs. But they will get smaller over time. A Sony A7S can see more than the human eye... so when it is dark, the A7S should make it possible to shoot, where a DSLR with that sensor would be problematic (unless you use the LCD screen). In future more sensors will reach that level. A Samsung NX1 has almost eliminated lag... maybe not in darkness, but the A7S sensor combined with NX1 processor/electronics wouldn't run into trouble as easily. AF performance is getting better... during daytime, and eventually at night.


What advantages to DSLRs remain? Size? Battery life? How about a 5D sized mirrorless camera that is basically made out of batteries? Making something BIGGER and HEAVIER is not a big issue (Canikon have proven that, no? 7D etc., why is a APS-C camera that huge? Pentax can fit similar tech and quality into the much smaller and lighter K-3). OLED TV makers CAN make flat TVs... but currently they only make curved TVs, because that's special and grabs attention. Eventually flat OLED TVs will appear.


That is why I doubt that DSLRs have a big future ahead. In the end mirrorless cameras can do the same and more.
The only difference between mirorless and DSLR... is the mirror and the optical viewfinder associated to it. So the better sensor, the better batterie, the better processing is just a marketing choice... Like oled maker making only curved screens for now, DSLR may not have yet the latest Sony sensor A7s (that is 1/3 stop better than D800 and quite low in resolution) but they can have it, with the batteries, the raw processing and all the stuff. I mean for now if I'am after low light shoots, Nikon DSLR seems much more capable offering overall with real native lense offering to match the need.

The only difference so is an optical viewfinder and a mirror as per definition and not necessarily an electronic viewfinder.

Agree with you the price and size should drive things and Fuji/Olympus and alike all proved that at least mirrorless APSC or m4/3 can be significantly smaller overall (lenses + body). That's not really the case of mirorless FF for now. They are the future... But it will go slowly. EVF alone is not enough to make everybody change their camera soon.

Without anything outstanding, it may take 2-5 years at least for them to get crop sensor market and much more for FF market... And a few more years until they become the major type of interchangeable lenses camera in everybody homes.

The biggest issue to mirrorless to me... is size is the real visible gain... But it doesn't apply anymore on fast f/2.8 zooms and teles. If you want to use somes of theses fast tele lenses, you are for now better to stick with an OVF. Many time the mirrorless maker like Sony or Fuji don't even have a decent offering here.

Price wise, mirrorless tend to be more expensive. I can do a lot with entry level DSLR and set of tamron f/2.8 zoom in term of picture quality... For now i need to spend much more on a mirrorless system to achieve that.

It will arrive... But maybe slower than what many think.
12-05-2014, 06:54 PM   #400
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
...
Agree with you the price and size should drive things and Fuji/Olympus and alike all proved that at least mirrorless APSC or m4/3 can be significantly smaller overall (lenses + body). That's not really the case of mirorless FF for now. They are the future... But it will go slowly. EVF alone is not enough to make everybody change their camera soon. ...
.
The latest rumor from pretty good sources is that the Oly OMD-EM5 Mark II will stay m4/3 but use sensor shift technology to squeeze 40 MP out of the current 16.3 MP sensor. I have no idea what the price point might be but am considering waiting to replace my current EM5. I was thinking about the EM1 but now ... ?

My 45 mm f/1.8 (90 mm equ.) portrait lens is about half the size of a tea cup. The 75 mm f/1.8 (150 mm equ.) is about half a beer can. The zooms tend to be bigger - my 12-40 mm f/2.8 PRO is pretty big and the 40-150 mm larger still - but they are still smaller than the equivalent DSLR lenses. And with Oly, they are lighter since the SR is in the camera, not the lens, something they share with Pentax.
12-05-2014, 09:40 PM   #401
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Hmm, Sony seems to be having a wonderful time right now. Someone seems to be out to get them big-time.

The Sony Hack: The Gift That Keeps On Giving

Might be some effect on their operations for a bit.
12-05-2014, 10:00 PM   #402
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Sorry but I just like looking through a viewfinder. Just like I look through a scope, binoculars and telescopes. The whole virtual viewfinder thing gets me nervous...
12-06-2014, 04:59 AM   #403
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote

fact is, the lea4 photo comparisons that people have made don't typically show any more than 1/3ev loss, which is insignificant.

Again, you can't grasp how light works.


Sony cheerleading is one thing, lack of being able to count is another - why are you still embarrassing yourself?


1/2eV is about 30% loss, 1/3eV is about 21% loss!


You yourself said the loss is between 1/3 and 1/2, so don't backpedal now ... and this was the range found at the time by DigitalRev.


The effect is that if you spend more than $3000 on a Sony Alpha f2.8 II G lens, congratulations, you put this adapter on and before anything else, you've just turned it into a $3000 f3.2 lens.

Congratulations!


See the end of:

Last edited by clackers; 12-06-2014 at 05:16 AM.
12-06-2014, 05:03 AM   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by abmj Quote
The latest rumor from pretty good sources is that the Oly OMD-EM5 Mark II will stay m4/3 but use sensor shift technology to squeeze 40 MP out of the current 16.3 MP sensor. I have no idea what the price point might be but am considering waiting to replace my current EM5. I was thinking about the EM1 but now ... ?

My 45 mm f/1.8 (90 mm equ.) portrait lens is about half the size of a tea cup. The 75 mm f/1.8 (150 mm equ.) is about half a beer can. The zooms tend to be bigger - my 12-40 mm f/2.8 PRO is pretty big and the 40-150 mm larger still - but they are still smaller than the equivalent DSLR lenses. And with Oly, they are lighter since the SR is in the camera, not the lens, something they share with Pentax.
For me if we think of size, this become a problem of focal lens. Let take an example. I'd say I'am pretty comfortable with 135mm max focal lens on APSC. Not good for wildlife, but overall quite ok.

If I go FF, this mean I need 200mm. If I go at least for an f/4 zoom on mirrorless from Sony... That 17.5cm. If I go for f/2.8 zoom on FF DSLR that 20cm and with current possibilities, that 24cm on sony mirrorless FF as I need lea4 converter.

For the same framing if I go opposite, I need only 13.5-14cm on APSC DSLR or mirrorless (look at both 50-135 on Pentax and 50-150 of Fuji). That still to big if you ask me, but already quite more lightweight/smaller than on any FF, mirorless or not. If I go micro 4/3, the Pana 35-100mm f/2.8 seems to fit the bill for framing and quality. It take only 10cm. That start to be quite better. 2 time shorter than FF... Because we have a crop factor of 2. Nothing magical.

In the grand schemes of things, mirrorless biggest asset for size is against APSC DSLR. Thoses guy inherited a mount made for FF with a registration distance for FF and to fit an FF mirror. Going mirorless do not give you smaller tele on APSC (like the 50-150mm from Fuji that is big)... But at least you get far smaller wide. And that's nice.

FF mirrorless doesn't manage to get enough out of it to be really smaller than APSC. Just a bit smaller than other FF. And the need for longer focal length mean the adventage is reduced. You need 200mm much more on FF than on APSC or even more micro 4/3. Fast long lenses are big... that a fact with current optics.

I agree that on could retrict himself not to 135mm on APSC in term of focal but to maybe 70-85mm only. Still that 100-120mm on FF and already big. There no way 55mm f/1.8 prime from FE lens can cover the upper range for me. I'd ask at least for something covering 135mm and would want the possibility of 200mm. That's the problem.

I understand through this requirements can change depending of the user. Still I think that with the sucess of big zooms (20X and more) that many consumers want long focal length and I would not be alone thinking 55 or maybe even 85mm max is not enough on FF.

EVF has many good thing that should develop in the future and will surelly replace DSLR... In the long run will not be a matter of choice. The market will choose for you. Mostly based on cost. That's for sure. When, is another question.

There lot of consistency to me to go mirorless on micro 4/3, APSC as you can in the end reduce cost, because many buying don't have legacy lenses anyway (and don't plan to buy any expensive one neither) so even changing the mount for a good share of market is no big deal. The size is a good argument through.

FF still represent the best of the best for most. With huge high quality lenses, big bodies, ultimate AF performance... And thoses guy are still all DSLR for now (A7 doesn't play same league as D4s for example). I have the idea that thoses will stay with OVF longer than the rest.

As for Pentax, maybe I'am wrong but i think that an K-S2 or something but with an EVF and even smaller but keeping K-mount could be a huge success. I think too many discounted how it was important for current K-mount owner to have a good view finder, while only few would invest to K-mount just for K01. This thing could be nice. How to go out with your ltd and keep an even smaller form factor.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-06-2014 at 05:10 AM.
12-06-2014, 05:15 AM   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by abmj Quote
The latest rumor from pretty good sources is that the Oly OMD-EM5 Mark II will stay m4/3 but use sensor shift technology to squeeze 40 MP out of the current 16.3 MP sensor. I have no idea what the price point might be but am considering waiting to replace my current EM5. I was thinking about the EM1 but now ... ?

My 45 mm f/1.8 (90 mm equ.) portrait lens is about half the size of a tea cup. The 75 mm f/1.8 (150 mm equ.) is about half a beer can. The zooms tend to be bigger - my 12-40 mm f/2.8 PRO is pretty big and the 40-150 mm larger still - but they are still smaller than the equivalent DSLR lenses. And with Oly, they are lighter since the SR is in the camera, not the lens, something they share with Pentax.
It seems like that sensor shift will be of limited value. Only usable on a tripod in completely static situations. I don't have a doubt that Pentax will release some such feature down the road, but I just don't know that it would be a reason to buy a camera or not.
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