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12-06-2014, 02:30 PM   #421
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is not english but logic overall... That why insulting non native speaker doesn't really help you.
trying to decipher poor english is a hassle, not an insult.

you should be thankful that i took the time to clarify what you posted.

and no, your logic there failed.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Put it another way:
An A7s + FE 24-70 f/4 can be find for 2800 and get 0.2EV adventage due to f/4 only.
An D610 + tamron 28-70 can be find for 2000$ and get 1.15EV advantage..
to put it simply, no.

lol

12-06-2014, 02:34 PM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The IQ advantage is going to depend on ISO and the size of the final output.

Let's say the goal is an 8x10 print:
K-3: Pentax K-3 Review - Image Quality
"ISO 3200 yields good 8 x 10 inch prints, with only a mild trace of noise in shadowy areas of our target."

A7: Sony A7 Review - Image Quality
"ISO 12,800 prints will work for less critical applications at 8 x 10 inches and almost warrant the "good" seal, which is really amazing."

My K-3 is good for 13x19 at 800 ISO which matches what IR claims. For the A7 they consider 3200 ISO the max for a 13x19 print. Since my printed portfolios are 13x19 that is a significant difference for me. 13x19 is my target print size and it's the largest I can print on my Canon 9500II.
Does the K-5 (Original) get up to iso1600 for this 13x19 inch print and keeping quality good enough?
12-06-2014, 02:39 PM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The IQ advantage is going to depend on ISO and the size of the final output.

Let's say the goal is an 8x10 print:
K-3: Pentax K-3 Review - Image Quality
"ISO 3200 yields good 8 x 10 inch prints, with only a mild trace of noise in shadowy areas of our target."

A7: Sony A7 Review - Image Quality
"ISO 12,800 prints will work for less critical applications at 8 x 10 inches and almost warrant the "good" seal, which is really amazing."

My K-3 is good for 13x19 at 800 ISO which matches what IR claims. For the A7 they consider 3200 ISO the max for a 13x19 print. Since my printed portfolios are 13x19 that is a significant difference for me. 13x19 is my target print size and it's the largest I can print on my Canon 9500II.
So that would be 2EV... Except of course it is subjective and there was no test as intermerdiate values like 1200 or 2500 isos. The DxO bar is 1200 iso for K3 and 2200 iso for A7 for 30Db of signal noise ratio.

there only 1.15EV difference coming from size and having exactly same resolution, the gain should be arround theses 1.15EV. That exactly what Dxo find out of say K3 vs D610... But apparently A7 is a little worse than D610.

I just think that to really match the exact difference in quality you need more than 1 test every EV and more than a subjective rating "good" from a reviewer.
12-06-2014, 02:47 PM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
trying to decipher poor english is a hassle, not an insult.

you should be thankful that i took the time to clarify what you posted.

and no, your logic there failed.



to put it simply, no.

lol
And I'am so thankfull... I mean I so happy you are a native speaker... I mean in this "to put it simply, no" there all the justification behind, all the mathetical proof in the world and all the thing that make everybody here trust you so much in Pentax Forum...

Only problem is that there more human that are non native english speaker in the world, than native one.

Poor osv... You saw the light, you know the truth but so many are misguided and fail to understand... You are like Jesus at the begining of Christianism... You are here to suffer non native speaker weak understand of english and camera gear. And english is the new sacred language.

And my bad... All theses misguided guys, they may even don't buy A7... Imagine that ? That terrible concerning obviously the best camera out there? Sony get even reduced sales... The best camera maker in the world could loose money because of guys like me... NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I hope you can still manage to sleep !

12-06-2014, 03:19 PM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Sony get even reduced sales... The best camera maker in the world could loose money because of guys like me... NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
on the contrary, i don't think that anything you post will be much of a problem for sony camera sales
12-06-2014, 03:47 PM   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
to put it simply, no.
to put it simply, yes...

between K3, A7 and D610... K3 is the least expensive and D610 provide the best picture quality in term of dynamic range, color deph and low light performance. It also provide you acces to fast AF lenses without needing an adapter that remove 0.3EV of light.

A7 vs K3: 2248/1216 = 1.84 => a little less 0.9EV.
D610 vs K3: 2995/1216 = 2.46 => a little more than 1.2EV. If the sensor performance was only linked to sensor size, we should have 1.15EV.

And D610 vs A7 => 0.3EV.

If we go futher, best scoring camera overall under DxO is D810 with score of 97, 7 point more than A7... that get 8 point more than old K5. A7 is just in the middle, far from offering best quality.

But all theses camera have different price and cover different needs. Not everybody care to take shoots of black cat at night and can consequently can for example save the money and buy a K3, K30 or K5-II...
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Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-06-2014 at 04:10 PM.
12-06-2014, 03:54 PM - 1 Like   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
on the contrary, i don't think that anything you post will be much of a problem for sony camera sales
People who are wise buy into systems for the glass. As of right now, there is no real competition between Nikon mount and FE mount when it comes to glass. I don't really see that many folks leaving canon and Nikon for Sony.
12-06-2014, 04:04 PM - 1 Like   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is not english but logic overall... That why insulting non native speaker doesn't really help you.

Put it another way:

A K30/K5 + tamron 17-50 f/2.8 can be find for 600.
A K3 + tamron 17-50 f/2.8 can be find for 1100
An A7 + some manual lenses can be find for 1500 and get up to 0.9EV or even more but no AF
An A7 + tamron 28-70 f/2.8 + lea4 can be find for 2000 and get 0.6EV advantage.
An A7s + tamron 28-70 f/2.8 + lea4 can be find for 2800 and get 0.9EV advantage.
An A7 + FE 24-70 f/4 can be find for 2000 and get 0.1EV less low light performance due to f/4 only.
An A7s + FE 24-70 f/4 can be find for 2800 and get 0.2EV adventage due to f/4 only.
An D610 + tamron 28-70 can be find for 2000$ and get 1.15EV advantage.

There no point thinking that everybody will ever want to go for the third choice, even if they can buy cheap f/1.2 lenses. Some will choose that, maybe like you did, at least like you promote.

Some might be more budget cautious and choose the first solution. Some might want good AF but can't afford solution 4 or anything more expensive and go for K3+ tamron 17-50. After all, it is nearly half the price.

Some might prefer the D610 because they don't give a shit of EVF, manual focussing. But want better low light performance and want to use AF lenses. While keeping higher resolution and lower price than going A7.

That why in fact the market is shared among many actors and products. The needs are quite different and everybody can choose for himself whatever look best.

And here we just used AF vs MF and low light performance. But if size is critical micro 4/3 might be a better fit... or Sony Nex... or Fuji APSC. Or an high end compact; And if ultimate sport performance is critical, there only Canikon out there with the lenses.
Nicholas... he's only a troll. Stop feeding him.

12-07-2014, 10:00 AM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
between K3, A7 and D610... K3 is the least expensive and D610 provide the best picture quality in term of dynamic range, color deph and low light performance. It also provide you acces to fast AF lenses without needing an adapter that remove 0.3EV of light.
fast af? no

""In live view mode the D600 - like the D800 - uses contrast-detection autofocus, which allows for a continuous live view feed that doesn't black out during focus acquisition. The trade-off, however, is that the D600's contrast-detect AF is much slower than the phase detection AF the camera employs in its through-the-viewfinder shooting mode. In fact, like all current DSLRs, the D600's contrast-detection AF acquisition in live view is sluggish compared to most of the mirrorless cameras we've used. To be fair though, we imagine that for many D600 users, live view will be reserved primarily for critical focus applications like landscapes, still lifes and product photography, where maximum AF speed is less important than accuracy.
...Unlike Nikon's higher-end DSLRs though, the D600 does not offer live aperture control during live view viewing. When using live view, your lens is stopped down to the taking apertureat the moment live view is engaged. So if you want to shoot a scene at F8 for example, you're best off opening the aperture as wide as you can before entering live view, focussing at that aperture, then exiting live view and setting F8, and activating live view again to get the shot.
This is annoying, since it positively encourages focus errors until you realise what's going on. It's important to bear in mind that the D600's nearest competitor, the Canon EOS 6D, offers a more finessed live view experience, with the ability to turn exposure simulation on and off as well as aperture control/DOF preview in live view mode.
...The D600 is the first full-frame DSLR from Nikon that has not sported a variant of the 51-point AF system first seen in the D3 back in 2007. Instead it uses a tweaked version of the 39-point AF system introduced in the D7000. This system is perfectly capable but makes the D600 noticeably less versatile when focusing in poor light or in challenging conditions like sports, where its smaller, DX-format AF coverage could cause problems. That's the trade-off. If you need the ultimate in AF performance, save up for the more costly camera."
Nikon D600 In-Depth Review: Digital Photography Review

yes, the iso performance is impressive, but the functionality is obsolete, just like all dslrs.
12-07-2014, 10:16 AM   #430
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
yes, the iso performance is impressive, but the functionality is obsolete, just like all dslrs.
No it isn't. Mirrorboxes are inexpensive, reliable and work very well. Mirrorless would not work for the shooting I do, not at any price. Maybe three more generations of improvements would make it viable, but not now. Nikon, Canon and Pentax don't want to sell second rate technology to their active base of photographers.
12-07-2014, 10:43 AM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Nicholas... he's only a troll. Stop feeding him.
pretty much
12-07-2014, 11:07 AM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
People who are wise buy into systems for the glass. As of right now, there is no real competition between Nikon mount and FE mount when it comes to glass. I don't really see that many folks leaving canon and Nikon for Sony.
then how do you explain the cipa data showing negative dslr growth, and positive mirrorless growth? who do you think is buying mirrorless cameras? the sony/oly/fuji/ect. forums are loaded with people who are bailing out of dslrs.

there have been a bunch of people here on this forum who have actually used mirrorless, and posted favorable opinions about it.

childish name-calling and unsubstantiated opinions like "mirrorless won't work for what i shoot" speaks volumes about the posters, not the mirrorless form factor.

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 10:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
No it isn't. Mirrorboxes are inexpensive, reliable and work very well.
"
K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!


Currently, that post says:
Members Reporting the Issue

So far, in the various threads about this issue, between me and Jhmos, we've counted a total of 141 people who have reported having the problem at least once. This is a complete list. The names with stars are the ones that have also reported here in this thread (the ones without stars have reported in one of the other threads linked above). I will update the list as more people reply here.

So far, the issue seems to have been reported in serial numbers ranging anywhere from:
482XXXX to 493XXXX (black bodies)
and
2573XXX to 2578XXX (silver bodies)
The names with numbers indicate that the user has had more than one K3 body suffer with this problem.


Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/263060-k-3-mirror-flutter-reply-ricoh-4.html#ixzz3LEkx6plR"
12-07-2014, 12:13 PM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
then how do you explain the cipa data showing negative dslr growth, and positive mirrorless growth? who do you think is buying mirrorless cameras? the sony/oly/fuji/ect. forums are loaded with people who are bailing out of dslrs.

there have been a bunch of people here on this forum who have actually used mirrorless, and posted favorable opinions about it.

childish name-calling and unsubstantiated opinions like "mirrorless won't work for what i shoot" speaks volumes about the posters, not the mirrorless form factor.

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 10:13 AM ----------



"
K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!


Currently, that post says:
Members Reporting the Issue

So far, in the various threads about this issue, between me and Jhmos, we've counted a total of 141 people who have reported having the problem at least once. This is a complete list. The names with stars are the ones that have also reported here in this thread (the ones without stars have reported in one of the other threads linked above). I will update the list as more people reply here.

So far, the issue seems to have been reported in serial numbers ranging anywhere from:
482XXXX to 493XXXX (black bodies)
and
2573XXX to 2578XXX (silver bodies)
The names with numbers indicate that the user has had more than one K3 body suffer with this problem.


Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/263060-k-3-mirror-flutter-reply-ricoh-4.html#ixzz3LEkx6plR"
Oh please. I have two K3 bodies that work very well. One had the overrun twice but the firmware updates fixed it. I suppose the light leaks that Sony had discredit mirrorless as a technology as well.

You didn't read what I said after all. I could not have gotten the shots I did this year with mirrorless. I could not have gotten the shots. I did get them with an dslr. And I could have gotten them with a Nikon DSLR, a Canon DSLR. Mirrorless technology is not ready and is more expensive. In three years time the story may be different.
12-07-2014, 12:20 PM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
then how do you explain the cipa data showing negative dslr growth, and positive mirrorless growth? who do you think is buying mirrorless cameras? the sony/oly/fuji/ect. forums are loaded with people who are bailing out of dslrs.

there have been a bunch of people here on this forum who have actually used mirrorless, and posted favorable opinions about it.

childish name-calling and unsubstantiated opinions like "mirrorless won't work for what i shoot" speaks volumes about the posters, not the mirrorless form factor.

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 10:13 AM ----------



"
K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!


Currently, that post says:
Members Reporting the Issue

So far, in the various threads about this issue, between me and Jhmos, we've counted a total of 141 people who have reported having the problem at least once. This is a complete list. The names with stars are the ones that have also reported here in this thread (the ones without stars have reported in one of the other threads linked above). I will update the list as more people reply here.

So far, the issue seems to have been reported in serial numbers ranging anywhere from:
482XXXX to 493XXXX (black bodies)
and
2573XXX to 2578XXX (silver bodies)
The names with numbers indicate that the user has had more than one K3 body suffer with this problem.


Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/263060-k-3-mirror-flutter-reply-ricoh-4.html#ixzz3LEkx6plR"
The issues with the K3 have been over blown and resolved at this point. As to the growth of mirrorless, it is more that sales of SLRs have declined in absolute terms. There are still far more people shooting SLRs than mirrorless -- by far -- but the "need" to upgrade is decreased. If you own a D800, there is no particular reason to get a D810 or a D750. People are spacing out when they get camera replacements and as a result, SLR sales are falling. However, I believe that most folks replace SLRs with SLRs when they decide they need a replacement camera and if they purchase a mirrorless camera, it is more as an add on camera to go with their other gear.
12-07-2014, 12:22 PM   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
then how do you explain the cipa data showing negative dslr growth, and positive mirrorless growth? who do you think is buying mirrorless cameras? the sony/oly/fuji/ect. forums are loaded with people who are bailing out of dslrs.

there have been a bunch of people here on this forum who have actually used mirrorless, and posted favorable opinions about it.

childish name-calling and unsubstantiated opinions like "mirrorless won't work for what i shoot" speaks volumes about the posters, not the mirrorless form factor.

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 10:13 AM ----------



"
K3 Crazy Mirror Sickness (Mirror Flapping Lockup) - Report Yours Here!


Currently, that post says:
Members Reporting the Issue

So far, in the various threads about this issue, between me and Jhmos, we've counted a total of 141 people who have reported having the problem at least once. This is a complete list. The names with stars are the ones that have also reported here in this thread (the ones without stars have reported in one of the other threads linked above). I will update the list as more people reply here.

So far, the issue seems to have been reported in serial numbers ranging anywhere from:
482XXXX to 493XXXX (black bodies)
and
2573XXX to 2578XXX (silver bodies)
The names with numbers indicate that the user has had more than one K3 body suffer with this problem.


Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/263060-k-3-mirror-flutter-reply-ricoh-4.html#ixzz3LEkx6plR"
Spending your life slaggin what is currently probably the best apsc camera on the market (and I nclude any brand) doens't help your argiuement. all brands and i mean all brands have issues, it's how they resolve them that makes them different. Pentax has been pretty good about how they deal with issues. Sony in my experience across almost all their product lines as a retailer at one point or another meh not so much. they used to be but that has gone to hell in the last 15 years or so

Yes DSLR is shrinking (in faact the entire camera market is shrinking if you remove cell phones) and it is realigning based on a new category entering and old categories going out (not DSLR but point shoots). I like mirrorless as I've said, but there is still a lot to be said for the Mirro as well. Heck there is a lot to be said for coupled RF as well (too bad only Leica makes it in the digital age, it would be nice if Cosina Voigtlander found a partner for it or if Zeiss Ikon would launch as well.
you can shout ir all you want and jump up and down but look at the units. how many units were sold across DSLR? how many across MILC? which is the larger market? DSLR is established, at a dead entry price they can offer exceelent cameras with decent lenses (say the current price on K50 kits - show me a milc that outperforms a K50 at the current pricing. then there are the deeply doiscounted widely distributed canikons. BRands people recognise and that they think will be the best because pros use them. people buy on percieved value at the entry level. Once they are in a product line many will stay with it. lots of the DSLRS (and MILCs) willend up barely used - the people that bought those ones if and when they change will buy whatever, the people who engaged withg their brand are likely their to stay. Amateurs cant afford to build systems and change them over. Pros can and do (they also run multiple systems many pros will run a Rangefinder setup, a DSLR setup and a Medium format (heck some will even use large format) Pros are not indicative of where things are going because they can and will use anything It's not the gear diummy its the technique and talent - truly talented Pros will use what suits theier need to achieve their viosion. Brand doesn't influence it capabilitites do.
What I really want to know is how much is Sony paying it's trolls now days, because you completely come off as a shilling troll given your complete tunnel vision. A Sony fan boy would not be spending their time on a pentax forum they'd be talking with like minded individuals on a Sony forum. Do you go shilling on nikon and Canon forums as well? how about trying to convince leica guys that an a7 is a better camera?

sheesh why do I waste my time on these things, it's as bad as P&R which we banned 2 years ago. maybe it's time to ban trolling
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