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11-20-2014, 03:41 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by CDW Quote
It depends which cameras are being compared. Check out the noise and DR graphs on DXOMark between the Panasonic GH4 and Canon 7D mkII and you may find to your surprise that the GH4 has superior DR and better color (bit) depth than the Canon. In terms of noise the GH4 is so close to the Canon that by shooting RAW and carefully applying NR, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference up to ISO 800 or so. Bodies incorporating SONY sensors are a different story.
Well, almost everyone knows that Canon is at disadvantage because it's developing sensors in-house and tends to milk a sensor design for all its worth before passing on to something new...
You should compare a Panasonic m43 with a Panasonic APS-C (no dice...) or a Canon APS-C with a Canon m43 (ditto) or, finally, two bodies using Sony sensors (and that's truly a different story, as you poitned out).
Key phrase is, like in a lot of other circumstances, "all other things being equal".

11-20-2014, 03:43 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think people equate mirrorless with small camera size, but it doesn't have to be. You can make a mirrorless camera decent sized if you want. It isn't like you have to have tiny size with mirrorless. While some people seem to think it is, ergonomics definitely get worse when you get below a certain size of camera body.
I've noticed that when a fairly large m43 camera is introduced. like the Panny GH4, there are people who criticize it for being too large, that it is somehow a betrayal of its m43 heritage or something.

Amazing how some people find it so necessary to pigeonhole products...
11-20-2014, 04:24 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by kkoether Quote
It really wasn't bad although I learned to focus and pan on the fly with my ME Super way back when.
Yeah - me too! And the autowinder (remember how it was not a motor drive?) helped so much to catch some keepers, although it also ended up wasting some frames, paradoxically.
11-20-2014, 04:27 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by kkoether Quote
It really wasn't bad although I learned to focus and pan on the fly with my ME Super way back when.
Ricky Rudd and Ron Bouchard in the 83 Daytona 500? Rudd was in the middle of his Childress years, Bouchard driving for J. D. Stacy. I looked that part up, but I think I remember watching this race on TV.

On topic is way less exciting - the race was won by Cale Yarborough over Buddy Baker, a classic! Anyway, how many camera styles have actually died? A lot are still hanging on. The upstart technologies will have to get better before the funeral planning begins.

11-20-2014, 04:29 PM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
I'm shooting exclusively K-01 now, but I must say I miss some features of DSLRs...
I also miss the bulk and the "mechanical" feel (strange but true)...
I could, however, accept to go exclusively mirrorless given 1. a proper CDAF system and 2. a good, large viewfinder (even EVF, even magnified).
In the end I like the fact that we still have a choice, and that's a good thing.
You're in the same position as me. I miss some DSLR characteristics, but I don't think they can be seen as better overall.

Remember that this place is a Pentax forum and Pentax has been making SLR cameras for decades, so there is a natural bias towars SLRs here. I don't think we are very representative of the while market in 2015. For what it's worth, my observations in Japan are that it's about 50:50 between mirror less and DSLRs now. That is in the sales charts, presence in stores and what I see people using in Tokyo.

I don't think any trend is inevitable. The future isn't set in stone, but if Pentax wants to continue to focus on DSLRs, they have to make a really good case for the technology and introduce innovations that justify its continued existence. I don't see that right now. It's the same for the camera industry as a whole in the face of smartphones.
11-20-2014, 04:46 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by demondata Quote
Yeah - me too! And the autowinder (remember how it was not a motor drive?) helped so much to catch some keepers, although it also ended up wasting some frames, paradoxically.

LOL!!! My autowinder was my thumb!


I always wanted one but never did get one. Oh how I wish we'd had digital back then!
11-20-2014, 05:01 PM   #37
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As for now I will stay with SLR, as I'm happy with it and I see no reason to move to something like NEX. Still I have a friend who is trying to sell a K5 (actually my K5, I sold it to her) in order to buy a NEX. She has some eye problems and she complains about the K5 viewfinder, she prefers NEX. Funny thing is that with all her eye problems, she nails focus 90% of the time using only fast (1.4) manual lenses on the K5 for low light action shooting. Insane...
11-20-2014, 05:04 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Just1MoreDave Quote
Ricky Rudd and Ron Bouchard in the 83 Daytona 500? Rudd was in the middle of his Childress years, Bouchard driving for J. D. Stacy. I looked that part up, but I think I remember watching this race on TV.

On topic is way less exciting - the race was won by Cale Yarborough over Buddy Baker, a classic! Anyway, how many camera styles have actually died? A lot are still hanging on. The upstart technologies will have to get better before the funeral planning begins.


Actually it is the 83 Busch Clash. Ron had J.D. Stacy as a sponsor in 1982.





Stacy was all but gone in 83. I believe he did still own this car with Mark Martin driving.





The lens I used on these shots helped carry me into the digital age on my K200D. It wasn't too bad for a no name lens. As I said I'll take a DSLR any day. I cannot see a mirrorless with an EVF working in bright sunlight for these type of shots. Not yet anyway.


Last edited by kkoether; 11-20-2014 at 06:53 PM.
11-20-2014, 06:45 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Well, almost everyone knows that Canon is at disadvantage because it's developing sensors in-house and tends to milk a sensor design for all its worth before passing on to something new...
You should compare a Panasonic m43 with a Panasonic APS-C (no dice...) or a Canon APS-C with a Canon m43 (ditto) or, finally, two bodies using Sony sensors (and that's truly a different story, as you poitned out).
Key phrase is, like in a lot of other circumstances, "all other things being equal".
Actually, I did just that. I compared the A6000 24 meg and K-5 II 16 meg against the GH4. Arguably the GH4 represents the current state of the art in an m4/3 body, the K-5 II likewise in its sensor size/range and the A6000 is also excellent. The GH4 tracked very close to the other two with the exception of DR of the K5 II, which is pretty much the pinnacle of DR in an APS-c body. There was more spread between the APS-c bodies and FF Nikons/SONYs than the spread between m4/3 and APS-c. Obviously there are other m4/3 bodies in the 16 meg range that won't do as well as the GH4 in such comparisons, as well as some APS-c bodies that will do worse (Canons as we all know).

I sold my K3 because it just didn't offer that much of an improvement over my GH4. I bought the GH4 primarily for video but found to my surprise that with good optics it was close enough to my K3 in overall performance and better in some respects, that it stayed at home. When I really need to pull out all the stops for landscape shooting, I use my 645Z. And it is likely the last DSLR I'll ever own.
11-20-2014, 07:58 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I've noticed that when a fairly large m43 camera is introduced. like the Panny GH4, there are people who criticize it for being too large, that it is somehow a betrayal of its m43 heritage or something.

Amazing how some people find it so necessary to pigeonhole products...
Once you get to a certain size sensor and mount, your lenses are going to be the size they are. You can make them a little smaller by shortening the registration distance (at least for wide angles) and also, just by limiting the max aperture (Pentax does this a lot). In the end, the question is how big you camera/lens combo is and when you get to larger sensors and talk even f4 zooms, they are pretty decent sizes. This is definitely the niche where SLRs will hold their own the longest, although there is nothing that says you can't take a K3 body, take out the mirror and just stick an EVF in it. Some people would probably prefer it.
11-20-2014, 08:08 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Interesting view. Are you really sure ? What's your rationale, regarding the impending death of DSLR's ?
No doubt Samsung has shipped a lot of NX1s...
11-20-2014, 08:55 PM   #42
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Here's some interesting observations from a veteran reviewer (who led me to my first DSLR, a K100D Super, in 2007):
[DSLR OR CSC?] | dpexpert
[SHUTTER DIPLOMACY] | dpexpert
[REVIEW–FUJIFILM X-T1] | dpexpert
Terry's argument is encapsulated in this line: "Who needs all that extra bulk [of a DSLR] when it doesn’t translate into better image quality?"

I'm not qualified to weigh in to this debate. All I would say is that, putting aside the choice of lenses, personally I prefer the feel of a DSLR with a good OV, and I like the ergonomics of the buttons and dials on my camera. I also like the balance of the camera when used with longer and heavier lenses.
11-20-2014, 10:35 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Here's some interesting observations from a veteran reviewer (who led me to my first DSLR, a K100D Super, in 2007):
[DSLR OR CSC?] | dpexpert
[SHUTTER DIPLOMACY] | dpexpert
[REVIEW–FUJIFILM X-T1] | dpexpert
Terry's argument is encapsulated in this line: "Who needs all that extra bulk [of a DSLR] when it doesn’t translate into better image quality?"

I'm not qualified to weigh in to this debate. All I would say is that, putting aside the choice of lenses, personally I prefer the feel of a DSLR with a good OV, and I like the ergonomics of the buttons and dials on my camera. I also like the balance of the camera when used with longer and heavier lenses.
Well, that "extra" bulk accommodates a longer-life battery in the Pentax K-5 than the Fuji XT1, and not everyone is of diminutive stature who enjoys small cameras.

Here's the real test, IMO: for each system, take a body and the lenses you would normal carry on your photographic journey, and see which kit is bulkier and heavier. One larger/heavier lens can tip the balance.
11-20-2014, 10:47 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
... unless it can shoot like an SLR look like an SLR work like an SLR and feel like and SLR. ...
Sounds a lot like you are describing my Oly EM5 or the EM1.

---------- Post added 11-20-14 at 09:55 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kkoether Quote
LOL!!! My autowinder was my thumb! ...
That is actually one thing I don't miss.

---------- Post added 11-20-14 at 10:07 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
... and not everyone is of diminutive stature who enjoys small cameras.

Here's the real test, IMO: for each system, take a body and the lenses you would normal carry on your photographic journey, and see which kit is bulkier and heavier. One larger/heavier lens can tip the balance.
You just summed up why I sold my K5ii and all my lenses to get into m4/3. Using carry-on only, I travel all around the world and my current Oly OMD kit takes up about half the space and 1/3 the weight but still gives me image quality that is as good in most circumstances. As I've gotten older, the decrease in weight and bulk has become much more attractive. I doubt I would still be carrying anywhere near the same amount of gear if I was still using the K5 or K3.

Oh, and my "diminutive stature" is 6'-5", 265 and I definitely "enjoy small cameras."
11-21-2014, 08:57 AM   #45
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The actual physical size and shape of an object has a lot to do with how usable it feels.

I'm a bit over six feet tall and I have relatively large hands. When I got the iphone 5, it felt so small in my hands I could barely use it. It was slipping between my fingers constantly and I actually dropped it a few times as a result. I went to return it, but the salesman convinced me to try putting it in the largest case they had and that made the phone a pleasure to use.

When I bought my K5iis, one of the biggest selling points for me was that it is physically larger than my old camera and had a grip available for it that would allow me to make it even larger.

I recently was in my local BestBuy and spent a few minutes goofing around with a sony a6000. It's a pretty amazing camera. The autofocus is really fast and it seems quite accurate. The body is very light and small. I was considering buying one but after ten minutes in my hands I knew I would hate it. It was so small and insubstantial it felt like it was slipping out of my hands. It reminded me of the iphone.

My point is that right now, small is novel for cameras that actually yield reasonable results. It's amazing to have a camera the size of the sony a6000 that can take good pictures. But the size and shape of the "classic" dslr has been tested and refined for decades and it works really freaking well. I think that a lot of times, "small" is a sort of code for "not heavy" and I'd certainly love to see a lot more "not heavy" cameras that have the classic dslr size and ergonomics.

There's certainly a place for "fit in your pocket" cameras, and it's amazing how good their image quality is getting, but it's hard for me to imagine that they will ever push the larger bodied cameras to extinction no matter how nice their image quality gets.
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