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12-07-2014, 12:25 PM   #436
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Oh please. I have two K3 bodies that work very well. One had the overrun twice but the firmware updates fixed it. I suppose the light leaks that Sony had discredit mirrorless as a technology as well.
at least 141 people have k3 mirror flap... that's not an "oh please" number, it indicates the possibility of a systemic problem with k3 mirrors.

it should be obvious that more moving parts means more chance for malfunction.

and fyi, there are a lot of dslrs with light leaks as well:
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&es_sm=122&q=dslr+viewfinder+light+leak

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
You didn't read what I said after all. I could not have gotten the shots I did this year with mirrorless. I could not have gotten the shots. I did get them with an dslr. And I could have gotten them with a Nikon DSLR, a Canon DSLR. Mirrorless technology is not ready and is more expensive. In three years time the story may be different.
which mirrorless camera did you use, that failed to get the shots?

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 11:30 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Spending your life slaggin what is currently probably the best apsc camera on the market
i posted a pentaxforums.com link; it's factual information *posted by dslr users*

i bet that you think that they were trolling too, huh?

12-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #437
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
at least 141 people have k3 mirror flap... that's not an "oh please" number, it indicates the possibility of a systemic problem with k3 mirrors.

it should be obvious that more moving parts means more chance for malfunction.

and fyi, there are a lot of dslrs with light leaks as well:
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&es_sm=122&q=dslr+viewfinder+light+leak



which mirrorless camera did you use, that failed to get the shots?
141 k 3 owners. HMMM how many sony owners had light leak issues (and how did sony resolve it in a timely manner. what was the percentage of actual defects versus sold units (123 doesn't seem like very many versus k3 sales to me)
more had the bad sensors on the k5 and it was resolved in a timely manner as well.His point was he could not have got all his shots on mirrorless. that is entirely plausible, I couldn't get everything on a mirrorless and i own 2 of the better ones, I can get what i want based on how i shoot. I'm not a BIF guy though, and I don't tramp algonquin park with Normhead so i don't worry about thos missed shots
DSLR light leaks = cover the vf when doing time exposures, hell for the longest time cameras came with a cap for that very thing. Sony light leaks were a manufacturing flaw in the mount itself not as easily solved as cover the vf with a cloth

---------- Post added 7th Dec 2014 at 14:49 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
at least 141 people have k3 mirror flap... that's not an "oh please" number, it indicates the possibility of a systemic problem with k3 mirrors.

it should be obvious that more moving parts means more chance for malfunction.

and fyi, there are a lot of dslrs with light leaks as well:
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&es_sm=122&q=dslr+viewfinder+light+leak



which mirrorless camera did you use, that failed to get the shots?

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 11:30 AM ----------



i posted a pentaxforums.com link; it's factual information *posted by dslr users*

i bet that you think that they were trolling too, huh?
no they weren't trolling they were reporting an issue which has susequently been solved you OTOH are using an old issue to slag a brand that stepped up and solved the issue in a timely manner. that would be trolling. using it as an arguiem,ent that Pentax is no good failing etdc is like using the sony light leak arguement (which Sony has addressed for the people who exhibited the issue - most people will never experience it as it is a long exposure problem - that in this case required more than a plastic cover

Last edited by eddie1960; 12-07-2014 at 12:50 PM.
12-07-2014, 12:52 PM   #438
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
DSLR light leaks = cover the vf when doing time exposures, hell for the longest time cameras came with a cap for that very thing. Sony light leaks were a manufacturing flaw in the mount itself not as easily solved as cover the vf with a cloth
i taped the a7r lens mount over, and trimmed it with an exacto knife... took about 15 minutes... sony provides a free warranty repair that includes a thin formed rubber piece to slide over the lens mount area.

it's the adapters, both cheap and expensive, that have light leakage problems, some of 'em are much worse than any problem in the lens mount area... a thick hairband usually fixes the worst of it.

i don't disagree with the claims that dslr af in general is better than mirrorless af, but there are exceptions, including for example my old k10d(horrible), and that weak nikon d610 af.
12-07-2014, 01:10 PM   #439
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
then how do you explain the cipa data showing negative dslr growth, and positive mirrorless growth? who do you think is buying mirrorless cameras? the sony/oly/fuji/ect. forums are loaded with people who are bailing out of dslrs.
There an heavy tendancy... When there is choice between quality and convenience... convenience almost always win. Already in film era most shooter where using 35mm that was very average... because they didn't want to bother with medium format or large format.

Yourself spend your life on this forum arguing on A7 ultimate quality while it is not the best in quality (as shown by DxO) and spend a great amount of time explaining how great the experience is when manual focussing with it. The conveniance gain was so big you had difficulties to admit the thing was not best at everything.

Many have their music encoded in MP3 now and listen it through they smartphone... The quality is inferior to CD the connectors are usually quite average... A few care of fashion and get some Beats headphones, but many just keep the chipo provided with their phone.

Most are using their smartphone to take photos and the iphone has just the most upload count in flickr. They don't care at all they loose many things from a DSLR and care even less as the difference in performance one mirrorless of DSLR FF body could have. They don't care of manual focussing, they just designate the area to focus on with their fingers. The long term vision is not even DSRL... It is smartphones. They allready outsell by several order of magnitudes all other camera sales. That is the future. The most progress we make on sensor, high isos... small optics... The more smartphones will dominate the overall market.

A few realize still that they want better photos and thoses massively brought DSLR and still continue overall to buy more DSLR than mirrorless (75% DSLR and 25% hybrids from latests stats). But more and more are interrested to get something still good but smaller. A few go for mirrorless (with half of them on micro 4/3), some go for the bigger sensor compact camera like RX100 or Fuji X30.

That the EVF has some latency, or that the AF is not as advenced to what Nikon can provided on their DSLR... That there not so many lenses available... That not that important to them because well they don't really care. They use the kit lens on it and that all. What it better? OVF ? EVF? They don't care.

They don't give a shit because their camera is good enough. They are not going to cover the next Olympics, they are not making a living on wedding photography or doing studio work. They don't need the ultimate AF, they don't need the ultimate resolution, they don't need a big choice of lenses.

They just want a good enough camera as small as possible. All the argument for camera X or Y being the ultimate whatever has no importance to them. They just want "good enough".

This is the big share of the sales. And A6000 is good enough like K30 is good enough or Rebel, or RX100.

A7 is different througth it try to appeal to the guys that need the absolute quality and to enthousiats photographers. On this market... The echosystem, the ultimate performance everywhere (not only in low light) is important. Many of they guys are also after the ultimate lenses, the best sensor quality, the best AF, the best viewfinder be it EVF or OVF.

We understood you like your A7... but not everybody is like you just after manual foccusing some oldies on an hyped mirorless body. There old guys that prefer OVF and think you look even older than them by still focussing manually... And they don't give a shit you think they use outdated technology... Like you don't give a shit what they think of you.

And there the pro. Thoses guys needs the results, they are not trolling on forum, and until now they don't massivelly use Sony. If it was only that, bigger size help convince the client they are serious. But overall, they were not so many convince by a-mount... No reason for them to change now... And they might not be convinced by FE mount...

As for the wonderfull manual focusssing performance... Do their job for a week, and you'll understand.

And if market evolution is any clue, Canon sales increased and they have the biggest share of cameras out of all brand... Still their sensors typically show very average performance on DxO. For sure their DSLR camera must be future: they sales increased !


Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-07-2014 at 01:36 PM.
12-07-2014, 01:12 PM   #440
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i taped the a7r lens mount over, and trimmed it with an exacto knife... took about 15 minutes... sony provides a free warranty repair that includes a thin formed rubber piece to slide over the lens mount area.

it's the adapters, both cheap and expensive, that have light leakage problems, some of 'em are much worse than any problem in the lens mount area... a thick hairband usually fixes the worst of it.

i don't disagree with the claims that dslr af in general is better than mirrorless af, but there are exceptions, including for example my old k10d(horrible), and that weak nikon d610 af.
You should go out with a buddy with a D610 and compare how you can handle some sport/action shoots with you A7 on a side and with the D610 on the other side
12-07-2014, 01:36 PM   #441
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
fast af? no

""In live view mode the D600 - like the D800 - uses contrast-detection autofocus, which allows for a continuous live view feed that doesn't black out during focus acquisition. The trade-off, however, is that the D600's contrast-detect AF is much slower than the phase detection AF the camera employs in its through-the-viewfinder shooting mode. In fact, like all current DSLRs, the D600's contrast-detection AF acquisition in live view is sluggish compared to most of the mirrorless cameras we've used. To be fair though, we imagine that for many D600 users, live view will be reserved primarily for critical focus applications like landscapes, still lifes and product photography, where maximum AF speed is less important than accuracy.
...Unlike Nikon's higher-end DSLRs though, the D600 does not offer live aperture control during live view viewing. When using live view, your lens is stopped down to the taking apertureat the moment live view is engaged. So if you want to shoot a scene at F8 for example, you're best off opening the aperture as wide as you can before entering live view, focussing at that aperture, then exiting live view and setting F8, and activating live view again to get the shot.
This is annoying, since it positively encourages focus errors until you realise what's going on. It's important to bear in mind that the D600's nearest competitor, the Canon EOS 6D, offers a more finessed live view experience, with the ability to turn exposure simulation on and off as well as aperture control/DOF preview in live view mode.
...The D600 is the first full-frame DSLR from Nikon that has not sported a variant of the 51-point AF system first seen in the D3 back in 2007. Instead it uses a tweaked version of the 39-point AF system introduced in the D7000. This system is perfectly capable but makes the D600 noticeably less versatile when focusing in poor light or in challenging conditions like sports, where its smaller, DX-format AF coverage could cause problems. That's the trade-off. If you need the ultimate in AF performance, save up for the more costly camera."
Nikon D600 In-Depth Review: Digital Photography Review

yes, the iso performance is impressive, but the functionality is obsolete, just like all dslrs.
Live view auto focus on SLRs is slower than comparative auto focus on most cameras. However, when using the viewfinder, you use PDAF which is plenty fast and Nikon has some of the fastest focusing lenses around. As I've said before this is what I would make my decision on as to which camera to buy -- what lenses I need and want -- not what camera body is the flavor of the month.

It is amazing osv, but you have single-handedly convinced me that mirrors need to stay for a long time. Your conviction that they need to go and that Sony is the wave of the future is more religion than based on reality.
12-07-2014, 01:54 PM   #442
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Live view auto focus on SLRs is slower than comparative auto focus on most cameras. However, when using the viewfinder, you use PDAF which is plenty fast and Nikon has some of the fastest focusing lenses around. As I've said before this is what I would make my decision on as to which camera to buy -- what lenses I need and want -- not what camera body is the flavor of the month.

It is amazing osv, but you have single-handedly convinced me that mirrors need to stay for a long time. Your conviction that they need to go and that Sony is the wave of the future is more religion than based on reality.
That was the same to me actually... Before i was thinking mirrorless were quite good and promising. osv managed to put in light all the shortcormings of his camera and ensure most readers of his post will not ever buy one.
12-07-2014, 02:17 PM   #443
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Eddie, didn't you contradict yourself a bit? You said brand people go after what pros buy... which until now was Canikon. But now pro's are switching to a certain degree... or substituting their current gear with mirrorless cameras, which for some jobs do the job better. I have the feeling these brand people will feel a sigh of relief and join the pros. The smaller and lighter form factor and that you by default can easily use the display, as they are used to, can appeal to ordinary people. And now that that choice gets confirmed as valid by pros...

12-07-2014, 02:27 PM   #444
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Eddie, didn't you contradict yourself a bit? You said brand people go after what pros buy... which until now was Canikon. But now pro's are switching to a certain degree... or substituting their current gear with mirrorless cameras, which for some jobs do the job better. I have the feeling these brand people will feel a sigh of relief and join the pros. The smaller and lighter form factor and that you by default can easily use the display, as they are used to, can appeal to ordinary people. And now that that choice gets confirmed as valid by pros...
in the general publics eye no they aren't switching at all, what they see is a whole hella lot of white lenses out there and that says canon, they see nikon pumped everywhere as they pay for the placement and then they see it around pro necks
Sure there are some pros shooting mirrorless but i wouldn't be surprised to find a lot of them also shoot canikon and some probably shoot hassy pentax or mamiya
but the lions share is still canikon and will be for quite soem time. I see guys who shoot both on the fuji forum every day, and they love their mirrorless setup but use the canikons for serious studio work requiring flash control or for when they need the long lenses. they operate 2 systems. the decline you see in sales in part is guys adding a second system and putting off the upgrade on the dslr because dslr got good enough in ff canikon worlds a couple of generations ago (I have a freind who shoots for a lot of different magazines and does fine art. His go to camera for his digital work is his 5d, not 5d2 or 5d3 his 5 d. and he does work for Nat Geo amongst others. He also still shoots his Hasselblad system and rents a back when he needs it for a studio shoot
the 5 d is his small system
12-07-2014, 02:29 PM   #445
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Eddie, didn't you contradict yourself a bit? You said brand people go after what pros buy... which until now was Canikon. But now pro's are switching to a certain degree... or substituting their current gear with mirrorless cameras, which for some jobs do the job better. I have the feeling these brand people will feel a sigh of relief and join the pros. The smaller and lighter form factor and that you by default can easily use the display, as they are used to, can appeal to ordinary people. And now that that choice gets confirmed as valid by pros...
I tend to think that the opposite... The heavy trend is people going mirrorless because it is smaller... And going even much more massively smartphone, because it is even smaller and because you already have it with you anyway.

The pro to me tend to be more conservative even through many have a compact or a mirrorless as secondary camera. Even if the pro gear get them only a small edge, they need to leverage all they can to stay competitive in this difficult market.
12-07-2014, 02:53 PM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by Saltwater Images Quote
EVF technology has become much better. I tried out a Sony a6000 at my local camera shop today out of curiosity. It was a tidy camera with fast AF however the kit lens was less than pedestrian and the EVF still has a long way to go before competing with a DSLR. Would I prefer the Sony over my K-5II with a HD DA 40 & HD Da 21 combo? Absolutely not. The appeal of these mirror-less cameras is small size…yet they often seem to have lenses attached that are significantly larger than Pentax pancakes...
To me the big appeal of the mirrorless camera is the EVF. Shooting with the EVF on my Olympus E-M5 is the highest-confidence experience that I get with any of my cameras. I'm sure it depends on your situation, your experience, your preferences, the type of photography you do... As always, "Your mileage may vary." However, from where I sit, the EVF has already blown past the OVF.

Size? ehh... It's nice. It was never my primary concern, but it's nice to see things getting smaller again after years of cameras only getting bigger and bigger. After using the E-M5 for a while, my K-5 II seems like a boat anchor.
12-07-2014, 03:44 PM   #447
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Love DSLR

Despite the fact that smaller cheaper cameras can take excellent images, I don't feel they are what photography is about. I have been using SLR cameras since 1966 (Zenith-E) and nothing can come close to the experience of seeing the optical image in a viewfinder. Obviously point and shoot cameras are more convenient from the size point of view, but give me a DSLR every time. My present from my wife this Christmas will be a K-5 II and 1.4 50mm DA lens.
12-07-2014, 03:59 PM   #448
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
at least 141 people have k3 mirror flap... that's not an "oh please" number, it indicates the possibility of a systemic problem with k3 mirrors.

it should be obvious that more moving parts means more chance for malfunction.

and fyi, there are a lot of dslrs with light leaks as well:
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&es_sm=122&q=dslr+viewfinder+light+leak



which mirrorless camera did you use, that failed to get the shots?

---------- Post added 12-07-2014 at 11:30 AM ----------



i posted a pentaxforums.com link; it's factual information *posted by dslr users*

i bet that you think that they were trolling too, huh?
As I said I have shot extensively with the k3. For the price it is the best match for my style of shooting on the market. Last year when I bought it a capable mirrorless was substantially more expensive and considerably less capable for what I do. I use live view from time to time, focus peaking is nice if I have a non moving subject and the body and lens are on a tripod. I had mirror overruns, which were fixed by an early firmware upgrade. I realize the limits of an ovf, and am open minded as to the possibilities.

But I take photos with my gear. Lots of them. I happen to practice the craft at the edges of the capabilities of my equipment. I would love less noise. A full frame sensor with the equivalent resolution would give me about a stop. I know that a stop costs you, I my case a few thousand dollars and heavier more bulky equipment. Or a few thousand and an inferior shooting experience.

The promise of mirror less is what? Cheaper? Not yet. Smaller? OK, but if there isn't a grip to hang onto I don't want it. Faster cycle speed? OK. But I have to look through an evf. And lose half a stop of light. And change mounts.

The value proposition isn't there. Maybe in a few years, but I would bet that for me, the market segment that I inhabit, the necessary capabilities will always make mirror less either too expensive and to many compromises compared to even the current offerings in DSLRs. And in a few years DSLRs will have improved as well.

By the way, I gained 4 or 5 stops by spending less that $200 for a manual flash and extender. Spending $1600 or more with lenses for the nicest mirrorless would not have gotten me the shot I did this morning. What I have got it. Oddly that is how I value a purchase. I have good reason to believe that I would be able to get fewer shots with the current offerings in mirrorless. Why would I bother even thinking about it?
12-07-2014, 04:42 PM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
As I said I have shot extensively with the k3. For the price it is the best match for my style of shooting on the market. Last year when I bought it a capable mirrorless was substantially more expensive and considerably less capable for what I do. I use live view from time to time, focus peaking is nice if I have a non moving subject and the body and lens are on a tripod. I had mirror overruns, which were fixed by an early firmware upgrade. I realize the limits of an ovf, and am open minded as to the possibilities.

But I take photos with my gear. Lots of them. I happen to practice the craft at the edges of the capabilities of my equipment. I would love less noise. A full frame sensor with the equivalent resolution would give me about a stop. I know that a stop costs you, I my case a few thousand dollars and heavier more bulky equipment. Or a few thousand and an inferior shooting experience.

The promise of mirror less is what? Cheaper? Not yet. Smaller? OK, but if there isn't a grip to hang onto I don't want it. Faster cycle speed? OK. But I have to look through an evf. And lose half a stop of light. And change mounts.

The value proposition isn't there. Maybe in a few years, but I would bet that for me, the market segment that I inhabit, the necessary capabilities will always make mirror less either too expensive and to many compromises compared to even the current offerings in DSLRs. And in a few years DSLRs will have improved as well.

By the way, I gained 4 or 5 stops by spending less that $200 for a manual flash and extender. Spending $1600 or more with lenses for the nicest mirrorless would not have gotten me the shot I did this morning. What I have got it. Oddly that is how I value a purchase. I have good reason to believe that I would be able to get fewer shots with the current offerings in mirrorless. Why would I bother even thinking about it?
Because obviously if you don't have the same point view as osv the god of trolls, you must be wrong. That should be enough to convince you to order an A7 in the next hour. I mean for sure what you or me could think should not even be taken into account.

And of course we should both go manual focus exclusively... If osv does it, it must be good.
12-07-2014, 07:45 PM   #450
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Like I've said, Mirrorless is still in its infancy & will have growing pains (aka having a few things that aren't as good as DSLR's). In around 3-5 years they'll possible be as good, but I don't think they'll overrun DSLR's.

As far as "Mirrorless is doing xyz times better than DSLR's right now!" thing, I think alot of those sales are because alot people are jumping on the "Oh look, something new!" bandwagon, and a small part are because most photographers are just interested in the new tech, even though it may not live up to certain "hype", and even though the fast glass isn't really there (yet, or even limited to a degree).
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