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12-21-2014, 11:25 AM   #526
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QuoteOriginally posted by whk1992 Quote
until Pentax makes a proper mirrorless APS-C interchangable lens camera, I'm still using DSLR.
Same here. I like the fact mirrorless is a bit more compact (slightly smaller size and less weight than a usual DSLR), but I'll wait until they come out with something that'll be hard to match by other companies.

12-21-2014, 01:37 PM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the biggest problem in the camera market from a manufacturer stand point is that the cameras have gotten too good. If you own a D7000 or an original K5 or even a 7D and you are a hobby shooter, what impetus do you have to upgrade?
as a K-5 owner the main impetus to upgrade is better AF. There are a few other things, but right now I can't justify it enough to myself to upgrade. Waiting to see what comes at CP+ anyway.
12-21-2014, 02:33 PM   #528
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12-21-2014, 04:12 PM   #529
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
Remember when everyone was claiming digital wouldn't completely replace film because of the tremendous amount of
information contained in a 35mm frame, let alone medium or even large format? Well, digital has not only equaled what
can be captured by a 35mm negative, we've surpassed it.

The SLR format is just that, a format. It serves a very useful function, but it is not the one and only way to achieve
an instant live view of the subject seen by the camera. EVF technology has not yet superseded OVF capabilities,
but given the track record of other advances I'm confident EVF will eventually equal or exceed OVF capabilities.
When that happens the mirror, and the resultant SLR format, will go away.
I personally disagree with your view on current EVFs, in my opinion a good clear evf by far exceeds an ovf. The live view you get from an EVF is the future, it leaves less to the unknown on how your pictures turn out.

12-21-2014, 04:36 PM   #530
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My SLRs are perfectly healthy thank you very much!

Following that the SLR market share is down, along with everything else. I think that Leica is the only camera company making any money right now.

There has been a huge amount of hype about mirrorless cameras, and I'm sure the camera companies would love to see them become more popular because they are less costly to produce, but sales have stayed flat over the past couple years. Not an indication of a takeover.

Based on Sony's recent presentation on sensor sales the big winner is still camera phones.

EDIT - In fact, Ricoh's purchase of Pentax doesn't look to smart right now. I certainly hope that sales stay good enough that they don't just pull the plug.
12-21-2014, 04:53 PM   #531
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QuoteOriginally posted by CNunez Quote
I personally disagree with your view on current EVFs, in my opinion a good clear evf by far exceeds an ovf. The live view you get from an EVF is the future, it leaves less to the unknown on how your pictures turn out.
In theory. Currently it is hard to find an EVF that outperforms with no lag an OVF. This will change, but it is not trivial. I don't think mirrorless is quite there with quick autofocus yet either. Close, or barely.

Mirrorless and EVF's have advantages, but also disadvantages. Same with OVF's and mirrored cameras. Right now the disadvantages of the EVF and advantages of an OVF are what makes the only choice an OVF for many shooters. That probably will change, but the shortcomings are not easy to overcome, and the complexity and expense will mean that only expensive bodies will have the necessary performance.
12-21-2014, 05:41 PM   #532
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
In theory. Currently it is hard to find an EVF that outperforms with no lag an OVF. This will change, but it is not trivial. I don't think mirrorless is quite there with quick autofocus yet either. Close, or barely.

Mirrorless and EVF's have advantages, but also disadvantages. Same with OVF's and mirrored cameras. Right now the disadvantages of the EVF and advantages of an OVF are what makes the only choice an OVF for many shooters. That probably will change, but the shortcomings are not easy to overcome, and the complexity and expense will mean that only expensive bodies will have the necessary performance.
Samsung has fixed the lag issue. IIRC the lag in the NX1 is something like 5 ms.


I think the issue is that mirrorless will take over. Will it take a year? 5 years? 10 years? Who knows. But as a camera maker, especially one that isn't too popular in the first place, it makes sense to position yourself so that when mirrorless takes over YOU are the one people will pick. The cards are being reshuffled. If Pentax is too late to the party, if they decide to stick with K mount lenses (which are an advantage right now, but eventually will be a disadvantage), then they will at best remain a small player.
12-21-2014, 06:09 PM   #533
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I think now would be a good time for Pentax to take a bigger step up in the mirrorless market, since the last few years would've been a good way for them to see what everyone else is doing and see where the tech is at and going, and able to improve on what's already out there.

12-21-2014, 07:16 PM   #534
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Samsung has fixed the lag issue. IIRC the lag in the NX1 is something like 5 ms.


I think the issue is that mirrorless will take over. Will it take a year? 5 years? 10 years? Who knows. But as a camera maker, especially one that isn't too popular in the first place, it makes sense to position yourself so that when mirrorless takes over YOU are the one people will pick. The cards are being reshuffled. If Pentax is too late to the party, if they decide to stick with K mount lenses (which are an advantage right now, but eventually will be a disadvantage), then they will at best remain a small player.
They better stick with K mount so that people have access to lots of lenses. It's fully compatible with all Pentax K lenses plus all M42. That's a huge plus cuz no big ugly adapter is needed.
12-21-2014, 07:42 PM   #535
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What if they made a FF with a m42 mount, how nice would that be? All the pros of digital, only downside would be no AF, even though I'm sure they would have in-body SR in it. Even though it would be a very niche product, they could just make it in small batches.
12-21-2014, 07:48 PM   #536
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
What if they made a FF with a m42 mount, how nice would that be? All the pros of digital, only downside would be no AF, even though I'm sure they would have in-body SR in it. Even though it would be a very niche product, they could just make it in small batches.
You would be willing to pay $6,000 - $7,000? Because you basically just described the Leica M.
12-21-2014, 08:04 PM   #537
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Has this been shared in the past 36 pages of 'discussion'?
If this chart is to be trusted, it appears dSLR shipments are down from previous 2 years but mirrorless isn't really up. not sure about actual sales though.
12-21-2014, 09:24 PM   #538
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Honestly, I'm more interested in a removable EVF connected via a hotshoe. That way, I can place the camera at some really awkward angle and attach the EVF using an extension cord.

Oh wait. There's eye-fi card for that purpose already. I don't need an EVF then.

---------- Post added 12-21-14 at 08:26 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
What if they made a FF with a m42 mount, how nice would that be? All the pros of digital, only downside would be no AF, even though I'm sure they would have in-body SR in it. Even though it would be a very niche product, they could just make it in small batches.
It's called a K-mount FF body with an adapter. I think K-mount was designed to be compatible with M42.
12-21-2014, 09:56 PM   #539
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Has this been shared in the past 36 pages of 'discussion'?
If this chart is to be trusted, it appears dSLR shipments are down from previous 2 years but mirrorless isn't really up. not sure about actual sales though.
Thats old information. The Oct shipping info from cipa has been published and DSLRs are down 14% i believe from a year ago and mirrorless are up 7% or some such. Mirrorless ILCs are about 30% of the ILC market. That's 30% that Pentax, Nikon and Canon no longer have. There was data recently from South Korea, apparently that showed Canon in first place market share, Sony in Second, Nikon in 3rd, and Samsung in 4th, IIRC.

What convinced me that things are changing, was when Canon announced at Photokina that they were developing a mirrorless for large format sensors. That indicates to me that they are concerned about the upstart mirrorless designs. As well as they should, 30% is not a small amount of market share to lose.

I thought it funny when one of the listed reasons to upgrade to Nikon D750, was that the FF now has a tilting LCD monitor - something that Sony has been putting on all their mirrorless APS and FF sensor cameras for the last 2 or 3 years. Even Pentax put it on the 645Z before Nikon incorporated it.

---------- Post added 12-21-14 at 09:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by CNunez Quote
I personally disagree with your view on current EVFs, in my opinion a good clear evf by far exceeds an ovf. The live view you get from an EVF is the future, it leaves less to the unknown on how your pictures turn out.
I agree. The "live-view" built into DSLRs are an attempt to compete with mirrorless cameras - but to me - it just seems very cumbersome compared to an EVF. Not only is it noisy, but holding a DSLR at arms length is nowhere as good for IQ as holding an EVF up against the eye.

Sony's mirrorless A7S is the ONLY FF camera out there that has a full electronic shutter that is absolutely quiet. A boon for shooting at quiet events, on sidewalks, in playhouses, etc. If ovf cameras are so advanced, why isn't there a DSLR model that has an electronic shutter out there. OVF advocates only want to lecture on the points that are favorable to their point of view. EVF has a lot of offer and its available now. (There are "leaf shutters" but i think they are much more expensive and they are not being used for FF as far as i know)
12-22-2014, 01:13 AM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I agree. The "live-view" built into DSLRs are an attempt to compete with mirrorless cameras - but to me - it just seems very cumbersome compared to an EVF. Not only is it noisy, but holding a DSLR at arms length is nowhere as good for IQ as holding an EVF up against the eye.
I am in contact with several photoclubs for young enthusiasts, including a local school. If young people ever do get the money scratched together to buy into a "real" camera... (and that's a big IF, because they prefer their small and cheap smartphones) ...then they still prefer using the LV screen over the OVF. They are so used to having that brightness, and having all that extra information present, that they just don't see the added value of using the dark OVF.

In my opinion, having a good EVF and no back LCD screen, but direct display with any smart device through wireless connection instead, would get young people's attention back again. It would also shave off some more weight and bulk. That back LCD is thicker then we assume.


QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Sony's mirrorless A7S is the ONLY FF camera out there that has a full electronic shutter that is absolutely quiet. A boon for shooting at quiet events, on sidewalks, in playhouses, etc. If ovf cameras are so advanced, why isn't there a DSLR model that has an electronic shutter out there. OVF advocates only want to lecture on the points that are favorable to their point of view. EVF has a lot of offer and its available now. (There are "leaf shutters" but i think they are much more expensive and they are not being used for FF as far as i know)
Oh, but a silent shutter will be a big hit, and a long awaited feature as soon as Canon or Nikon finally start using it.

I always find it funny how people find the "silent shutter" of the Pentax cameras so very important... Whilst at the same time they have world's loudest screwdrive.
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