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12-23-2014, 03:49 AM - 1 Like   #556
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I had the opportunity to swap cameras with a Sony A7R user - I was using my Leica S2, My colleague had a pet dog that she found particularly challenging to get a good photograph of. And I had to agree: with this subject, the A7r simply wasn't up the to the task of focusing on such a dark moving subject, and using the focus-by-wire lenses was completely out of the question. This 2 1/2 year old Labrador/Golden retriever cross wasn't in any mood to sit still (and even when she did it wasn't for long). But the Leica S2 with its large vibration inducing mirror and big heavy lenses was able to get images that the Sony camera wasn't able to. Also, the Leica summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH lens wiped the floor with the the Zeiss Loxia 50mm f/2 Planar T* in terms of contrast, colour reproduction, and overall image quality. Personally I was underwhelmed* by the performance of the Carl Zeiss lens. In addition I have to say the use of focus-by-wire mechanism on many E mount lenses lowered my opinion of lenses made for the Sony E mount**.


Leica S2 - Leica Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH (non CS version) @ f/4 ISO 320 1/250th (slight crop)



QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely NOT advocating taking pictures at arms length.
That won't stop people from trying - and complaining they can't get sharp images.


* This could be caused by sample variation, but the Zeiss Loxia didn't have the Zeiss "look" to my eyes, and this is rather upsetting to me. For many years I have used classic Zeiss RF and SLR glass like the Biogon 21mm f2.8, Distagon 35mm f/2, Planar 50mm f/2 and more recently - the Carl Zeiss OTUS 55mm f/1.4. Personally I think It would be a shame to see Zeiss lenses lose their character.

** As I understand it: Nearly all native Sony E and FE lenses focus by wire ( The two Zeiss loxia lenses: the 35mm f/2 and 50mm f/2 have excellent manual focus helicoids). Personally I loathe using focus by wire lenses.


Last edited by Digitalis; 12-23-2014 at 05:20 AM.
12-23-2014, 08:08 AM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I had the opportunity to swap cameras with a Sony A7R user - I was using my Leica S2, My colleague had a pet dog that she found particularly challenging to get a good photograph of. And I had to agree: with this subject, the A7r simply wasn't up the to the task of focusing on such a dark moving subject, and using the focus-by-wire lenses was completely out of the question. This 2 1/2 year old Labrador/Golden retriever cross wasn't in any mood to sit still (and even when she did it wasn't for long). But the Leica S2 with its large vibration inducing mirror and big heavy lenses was able to get images that the Sony camera wasn't able to. Also, the Leica summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH lens wiped the floor with the the Zeiss Loxia 50mm f/2 Planar T* in terms of contrast, colour reproduction, and overall image quality. Personally I was underwhelmed* by the performance of the Carl Zeiss lens. In addition I have to say the use of focus-by-wire mechanism on many E mount lenses lowered my opinion of lenses made for the Sony E mount**.


Leica S2 - Leica Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH (non CS version) @ f/4 ISO 320 1/250th (slight crop)





That won't stop people from trying - and complaining they can't get sharp images.


* This could be caused by sample variation, but the Zeiss Loxia didn't have the Zeiss "look" to my eyes, and this is rather upsetting to me. For many years I have used classic Zeiss RF and SLR glass like the Biogon 21mm f2.8, Distagon 35mm f/2, Planar 50mm f/2 and more recently - the Carl Zeiss OTUS 55mm f/1.4. Personally I think It would be a shame to see Zeiss lenses lose their character.

** As I understand it: Nearly all native Sony E and FE lenses focus by wire ( The two Zeiss loxia lenses: the 35mm f/2 and 50mm f/2 have excellent manual focus helicoids). Personally I loathe using focus by wire lenses.
My biggest grip with My Fuji stuff is focus by wire, other than that I can't complain about the system much at all.
That S2 shot is astounding the black details and colour reproduction would crush most lenses (of course at the cost they bloody well better)
12-23-2014, 08:23 AM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
My biggest grip with My Fuji stuff is focus by wire, other than that I can't complain about the system much at all. That S2 shot is astounding the black details and colour reproduction would crush most lenses (of course at the cost they bloody well better)
Yeah that is one of the reasons why my mother and I didn't like the Fuji X system, the focus by wire mechanism. Sure it is possible to use Leica M, Voightlander and Zeiss lenses but you forgo AF, which is one of the good reasons to get a X system as AF simply doesn't exist in any current RF camera system. Also alot of those older lenses don't work well with thick sensor stacks - astigmatism caused by thick sensor cover glass can become problematic.

And that Leica S2 shot is basically SOOC, no sharpening or corrections, only slight cropping done in Lightroom. That is how good the Leica S2 and the Leica lenses are.

Last edited by Digitalis; 12-23-2014 at 08:29 AM.
12-23-2014, 11:22 AM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
As I understand it: Nearly all native Sony E and FE lenses focus by wire
Are there any mirrorless AF lenses that are not focus by wire? I believe even the Leica T lenses are focus by wire.

12-23-2014, 03:29 PM   #560
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QuoteOriginally posted by fa8362 Quote
What about noise and dynamic range? M4/3 has little dynamic range and has lots of noise. To me, these are obvious when viewing.
I recently got a Pentax Q7. I haven't taken very many pictures with it yet, but even in a picture I took of my wife and our twenty-something daughters in a dark "Irish bar", noise is very reasonably low; as long as I didn't push the ISO above 1600, I could see virtually no noise even when I enlarged the picture almost to the pixel level on my computer screen.
12-23-2014, 03:38 PM   #561
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I begin suspect that this thread will out-live the DSLR.
12-23-2014, 06:58 PM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Are there any mirrorless AF lenses that are not focus by wire? I believe even the Leica T lenses are focus by wire.
You're right, the Leica T does focus by wire. WTF?
12-24-2014, 12:34 AM - 2 Likes   #563
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Not to downgrade the Leica S2 at all, after all it is an absolutely beautiful camera with beautiful lenses, but this shot could be taken with a K1000, or a Pentax SV, or a 1949 Contax S. Just about anyone who has any experience with manual focus and proper exposure can photograph an excited pup, even a big black one. I won't try to argue regarding the quality of the photograph taken by that Leica lens, it is obviously very good, but I think the real story here is not the camera, the lens or the dog. The story is that relying entirely on auto focus technology is a huge mistake. And trying to use live view to manually focus a lens isn't any better. Even that term is a unrealistic misnomer, and everyone would realize it if they gave it the slightest thought.

How can it be called "live view" when you are using a picture that is being electronically transmitted from the lens to the rear display screen? That's not live view, that is TV view. Live view is what I get in my K1000 viewfinder. People are praising electronic technology and saying that it will take the place of optical viewfinders. Now that we have "live view" slrs are dead. What the??? If some one were to walk up to you and offer to replace your eyeballs with small electronic viewfinders that featured "live view" we would rightfully think they are nuts. But we are perfectly willing to let people sell us this 2nd hand technology in substitute for the real thing in our cameras and think it is the greatest thing we have ever heard of. At least until we try to take a picture of a regular, normal, excitable black lab puppy.

And don't get me started on "focus by wire"...

kind of like drive by wire...???

I wonder when people will finally wake up and realize what they have actually lost in the name of technological progress? I am not a Luddite. I love technology. Electronic ignition is a huge step up from adjusting points. But some things just belong analog and trying to make them digital just cheapens them, it doesn't make them better.

12-24-2014, 01:14 AM   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Not to downgrade the Leica S2 at all, after all it is an absolutely beautiful camera with beautiful lenses, but this shot could be taken with a K1000, or a Pentax SV, or a 1949 Contax S. Just about anyone who has any experience with manual focus and proper exposure can photograph an excited pup, even a big black one. I won't try to argue regarding the quality of the photograph taken by that Leica lens, it is obviously very good, but I think the real story here is not the camera, the lens or the dog. The story is that relying entirely on auto focus technology is a huge mistake. And trying to use live view to manually focus a lens isn't any better. Even that term is a unrealistic misnomer, and everyone would realize it if they gave it the slightest thought.

How can it be called "live view" when you are using a picture that is being electronically transmitted from the lens to the rear display screen? That's not live view, that is TV view. Live view is what I get in my K1000 viewfinder. People are praising electronic technology and saying that it will take the place of optical viewfinders. Now that we have "live view" slrs are dead. What the??? If some one were to walk up to you and offer to replace your eyeballs with small electronic viewfinders that featured "live view" we would rightfully think they are nuts. But we are perfectly willing to let people sell us this 2nd hand technology in substitute for the real thing in our cameras and think it is the greatest thing we have ever heard of. At least until we try to take a picture of a regular, normal, excitable black lab puppy.

And don't get me started on "focus by wire"...

kind of like drive by wire...???

I wonder when people will finally wake up and realize what they have actually lost in the name of technological progress? I am not a Luddite. I love technology. Electronic ignition is a huge step up from adjusting points. But some things just belong analog and trying to make them digital just cheapens them, it doesn't make them better.
Amen!
12-24-2014, 02:41 AM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
How can it be called "live view" when you are using a picture that is being electronically transmitted from the lens to the rear display screen? That's not live view, that is TV view. Live view is what I get in my K1000 viewfinder.
You see what the sensor is seeying live at that moment. You cannot see what your film will see on you K1000. The optical VF sees what your lens sees.


QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
If some one were to walk up to you and offer to replace your eyeballs with small electronic viewfinders that featured "live view" we would rightfully think they are nuts.
But we're mostly happy with our eyes as they are. A lot of people are not happy with the OVF.


QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
But we are perfectly willing to let people sell us this 2nd hand technology in substitute for the real thing in our cameras and think it is the greatest thing we have ever heard of. At least until we try to take a picture of a regular, normal, excitable black lab puppy.
How is light that bounces off a mirror, through a grainy focussing screen, prism and OVF optics, then forming a darker grainy version of what the lens sees anywhere near "the real thing"?

The inability to focus correctly on that dog aparently didn't have anything to do with the EVF, but with the focus-by-wire. I don't understand why on earth the shooter didn't use AF and a larger DOF instead. The Leica S2 failed as wel, btw. There is more then a little foreground blur on the nose of the dog. I'm not gonna blame the shooter for that. I know he knows better. ☺ Now with an EVF, you get live DOF preview all the time. Then the shooter would have noticed the inappropriate aperture setting.

I love technogy as well. But users have to be able to use it. If they can't, they should indeed keep shooting with old stuff. And certainly not try to ruin progress for everybody by stopping such evolution.

If anything that Leica S2 is a perfect preview of future DSLRs: Highly specialistic very expensive tools. Price driven up by low demand. Or low demand due to such a high price?

Last edited by Clavius; 12-24-2014 at 02:52 AM.
12-24-2014, 02:48 AM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Not to downgrade the Leica S2 at all, after all it is an absolutely beautiful camera with beautiful lenses, but this shot could be taken with a K1000, or a Pentax SV, or a 1949 Contax S. Just about anyone who has any experience with manual focus and proper exposure can photograph an excited pup, even a big black one. I won't try to argue regarding the quality of the photograph taken by that Leica lens, it is obviously very good, but I think the real story here is not the camera, the lens or the dog. The story is that relying entirely on auto focus technology is a huge mistake. And trying to use live view to manually focus a lens isn't any better. Even that term is a unrealistic misnomer, and everyone would realize it if they gave it the slightest thought.

How can it be called "live view" when you are using a picture that is being electronically transmitted from the lens to the rear display screen? That's not live view, that is TV view. Live view is what I get in my K1000 viewfinder. People are praising electronic technology and saying that it will take the place of optical viewfinders. Now that we have "live view" slrs are dead. What the??? If some one were to walk up to you and offer to replace your eyeballs with small electronic viewfinders that featured "live view" we would rightfully think they are nuts. But we are perfectly willing to let people sell us this 2nd hand technology in substitute for the real thing in our cameras and think it is the greatest thing we have ever heard of. At least until we try to take a picture of a regular, normal, excitable black lab puppy.

And don't get me started on "focus by wire"...

kind of like drive by wire...???

I wonder when people will finally wake up and realize what they have actually lost in the name of technological progress? I am not a Luddite. I love technology. Electronic ignition is a huge step up from adjusting points. But some things just belong analog and trying to make them digital just cheapens them, it doesn't make them better.
The thing is that live view already has advantages over a traditional SLR viewfinder (which in APS-C cameras is not good). Disadvantages too, but they are getting smaller and smaller. And one day be so small they won't be noticeable.

Manual focus with an APS-C camera? Good luck. I could pull it off easily with an old film camera, but my K-5? Much harder. A good EVF will help with focusing, it is bigger, brighter (especially when coupled to the A7S sensor!), sharper. The lag will go away, the NX1 has shown that. 5 ms or so. Sounds acceptable for most uses. The EVF will give you an accurate representation of the exposure, of what to expect, plus additional information.

I don't like the EVFs I have seen so far, but I have no doubt that they will surpass OVFs.
12-24-2014, 04:18 AM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
kind of like drive by wire
I'll point out that modern airplanes use by wire controls..

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
How is light that bounces off a mirror, through a grainy focussing screen, prism and OVF optics, then forming a darker grainy version of what the lens sees anywhere near "the real thing"?
Perhaps you shouldn't use consumer level slow-as-hell zooms and use faster primes. Viewfinder grain doesn't present an obstacle to my work because I'm paying more attention to the subject than the focusing screen.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Not to downgrade the Leica S2 at all, after all it is an absolutely beautiful camera with beautiful lenses, but this shot could be taken with a K1000, or a Pentax SV, or a 1949 Contax S
The problem is that all those cameras are 35mm - the Leica S is medium format and the Leica S isn't a speed demon - not the way the Canon 1D and Nikon D4 cameras are.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
I wonder when people will finally wake up and realize what they have actually lost in the name of technological progress? I am not a Luddite. I love technology. Electronic ignition is a huge step up from adjusting points. But some things just belong analog and trying to make them digital just cheapens them, it doesn't make them better.
I agree, people forget all the things we throw out in the name of progress and cheaper production. Only to realize that things were just fine as they were.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The inability to focus correctly on that dog aparently didn't have anything to do with the EVF, but with the focus-by-wire. I don't understand why on earth the shooter didn't use AF and a larger DOF instead. The Leica S2 failed as wel, btw. There is more then a little foreground blur on the nose of the dog. I'm not gonna blame the shooter for that. I know he knows better. ☺ Now with an EVF, you get live DOF preview all the time. Then the shooter would have noticed the inappropriate aperture setting.
The Leica S2 didn't fail, the blur on the dogs nose and the background blur draws attention to the part of the animal that is characteristically most important in portraiture - its eyes. And in any case I had already stopped the lens down to f/4 and even then, the DOF is shallower than what was possible on the A7R at the same aperture due to its smaller sensor.

you have never held a Leica S2, the Sony A7R feels like a throwaway compact camera compared to the Leica S. Also I'll point out that the Sony A7R has a max flash sync speed of 1/160th - the Leica S with a CS equipped lens can sync at 1/1000th.

Last edited by Digitalis; 12-24-2014 at 04:49 AM.
12-24-2014, 04:54 AM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Are there any mirrorless AF lenses that are not focus by wire? I believe even the Leica T lenses are focus by wire.
mmm... the K-01 technically is a mirrorless, and it has a screwdrive focus motor... so all the K-mount lenses automatically qualify as "mirrorless lenses"...
12-24-2014, 04:57 AM - 1 Like   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
he K-01 technically is a mirrorless,
then hypothetically, if I took the mirror out of my Pentax K3 that would make it a K mount mirror less. So there you go people - all those who complain about Pentax not making a mirror less camera, embrace your pioneering spirit and make it yourself! - just pluck the mirror out of your SLR camera and presto - K mount mirrorless!
12-24-2014, 05:04 AM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Perhaps you shouldn't use consumer level slow-as-hell zooms and use faster primes. Viewfinder grain doesn't present an obstacle to my work because I'm paying more attention to the subject than the focusing screen.
Why is it "bad" for lenses to be slow, but OK for viewfinders to be deprived of light?

I have more fast primes then zooms. Actually, the 10-17 and the obligatory 55-300 are my only zooms out of my 22 lens lineup. The latter is used maybe once a year, because my preferences wheigh heavily toward wide angles. But thanks for pointing out yet another advantage of electronic VF's though. With the help of an EVF, that 55-300 would still profit from a nice big bright image in the viewfinder, regardless of the small wide-open-aperture of that lens.

As for the grain, it's there regardless of the speed of the attached lens. I can't quite work out how people can complain about EVF resolution when the grain of the focussing screen is many times more prominent and more coarse in OVF's.
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