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11-21-2014, 01:46 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I'm also going the mirrorless route:
I heard that dSLRs were a dying breed and jumped ship about five years ago:




Steve

11-21-2014, 01:51 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Well EVF as technology will mature and likely penetrate the high end market. It need a few years - maybe 5 - to be at same level and a few more - maybe 5 years more - to be the technology most the pro use.

As for the size, I still think some of the paid pro and enthousiast will get heavy, big camera with their big sensors and lenses. Because they want the best of the best.

The other will take even more photo with their phones who will become even better. They grow their sensor size, benefit of most the research, make even faster lenses. The biggest problem in the end is the zooming capability.

But mirrorless as the same zooming problem. You go mirorless for replacing you phone or compact with high quality but still get a small camera. But all mirorless tele are quite big, even more if they are reasonably fast, something that is really important for a tele lense...
I think that's right but it's also a concern for a relatively small segment of the market. The pro sports photographer may never use anything but a DSLR for the two obvious reasons: their lenses are huge (making body size almost irrelevant) and EVF lag (no matter how much it shrinks). And let's remember the lag on electronic camera viewers can't be too bad otherwise the TV networks would struggle to ever televise a football, basketball, or hockey game.

But for what percentage of buyers will either of these perhaps permanent disadvantages matter? Most people don't buy huge lenses. Most people don't try to get fantastic courtside photos that could best be captured with a D4 or whatever. For everyone else, MILCs become viable once the lens selection becomes large and the bodies come down in price to match comparable DSLRs (plus other technology gaps narrow).

I have a feeling, and that's all it is, Canon is using their consumer DSLR line to perfect the technology they'll eventually put into a serious MILC lineup. The 7D Mk II looks to be that testbed as they continue to advance the state of on-sensor PDAF which they only need now for video. When they're comfortable it works really really well, what's to hold them back from introducing a really good MILC?
11-21-2014, 01:54 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
While some love Sony, for me, they don't have the echosystem but more their overall behavior is more geek oriented and they don't seems to value long term echosystem and standards. I really feel they could tomorrow go for a totally new different system and don't give a shit to their previous customers.
Like any successful maker of goods, they'll go where the markets are. Their culture will determine which markets and how quickly. Sony is a long-established electronics manufacturer, with a history of producing better-than-average electronic goods that are at the forefront of trends (though not so much of innovation, since the Walkman days). When they took over the Konica-Minolta camera brand, their camera line was insignificant, but the products since have emphasised electronics, rather than optical systems, which they have largely left to Zeiss. As an aside, I suspect Zeiss owes a fair bit of its continued existence to Sony. The other camera makers grew out of optical systems, so it shouldn't be a surprise that that's where their emphasis lies, rather than electronics, even if Canon makes their own sensors. So, Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Ricoh support their established lens systems because that's what their customers want or have come to expect and Sony is free to do whatever they think will attract the next wave of buyers. Theirs is a brand-centred strategy that generates lots of sales of short-term products, but they obviously struggle with profit, and the other makers have product-centred strategies that are based on system longevity, which seem to be better at generating profits.
11-21-2014, 02:23 PM   #64
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they probably won´t die out, but they have already lost big part of a market. if last year sells looked like 70% slr / 30% system, this year we are almost 50%/50%.

the funny thing is that the system cameras with aps-c or fullframe, don´t give you the advantage, that you are expecting. you will have small boddies with huge lenses, still need huge bags to carry equipment and so on. compare a nex, it is only smaller if it has its pancace lens, otherwise, it doesn´t give you that advantage.
Pentax already has small enough slr with compact lenses, and i see no advantage in making it even smaller. OVF and EVF is a matter of taste, both has advantages and disadvantages.

m4/3 on other hand gives you an advantage of smaller body and smaller lenses. 150-600 on m4/3 looks like the canon 18-135 kit lens, or a bit thikened sony 50-200. 90mm 1.8 its tiny. and you can get all you want for affordable price. Iso is good enough, and if someone is talking about total quality, and not shooting hasselblad - there is no reason to argue about anything.
You will develop and shoot great photos no matter the size of the sensor you choose. there are more than enough canon 5dlll auto photographers.

most tourists see slr as an accesory, a "real" camera, but that will pass. and sooner or later most will see that mirrorless isn´t as small as it pretend to be. the "buzz" about nex has already caught attention of hobbists and newcommers, and between them more and more are facing towards m4/3.
so, i think that slr will still be out there, the aps-c mirrorless will probably drop, or they can exchange the hobbists slr. and we will see more tourists with m4/3.)

11-21-2014, 02:36 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I heard that dSLRs were a dying breed and jumped ship about five years ago:




Steve
The bellow revolution! When will the digital bellow cameras come?
11-21-2014, 05:02 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I heard that dSLRs were a dying breed and jumped ship about five years ago:




Steve
Oooh, that's a pretty camera!
11-21-2014, 09:43 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Oooh, that's a pretty camera!
Yes, very pretty...teak, carbon fiber, and cnc machined aluminum...also very portable. It folds down into a package that is about the same volume as a FF Canon with grip. The sheet film holders are bulky however


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11-21-2014, 09:57 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Maybe I'm a throwback, but I just don't understand the real advantage of small since it seems to force so many other compromises. I really don't care so much, though, what image capture device is attached to the rear of my lenses since I sort of know it will become obsolete relatively quickly. What matters to me is my lenses, which I expect to own for at least ten years, if not forever.
Convenience is #1 in a lot of people's minds.

Netflix doesn't have the picture quality (or the selection) of Blu-ray. People opt for Netflix because they don't have to leave the house.

Phone cameras aren't as capable or good as point and shoots, even. Despite this, 90% of Instagram and Facebook photos are probably taken with cell phones. Heck, there's 2 click processing software on those phones nows.

We live in a throw-it-away culture. Fixing things is expensive. Taking care of them is harder. Devices are made to last 3 years or so at which point they are expected to be replaced. Half the time the capacitors or other internals die after 5 years of use. Electronics are just not made to be kept for a long time, for the most part. (High-end stuff is, but few people buy it because it's, well, expensive.)

11-21-2014, 10:22 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Yes, very pretty...teak, carbon fiber, and cnc machined aluminum...also very portable. It folds down into a package that is about the same volume as a FF Canon with grip. The sheet film holders are bulky however


Steve
Now, if you don;t mind me asking - What does something like that set you back?
11-21-2014, 10:40 PM   #70
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DSLR's started to replace pocket cams as the family camera for a while. But then cell phone and tablet cameras got better, and new smaller format lens changeable cameras came along and people that were migrating to DSLR's started liking having smaller options. Everybody has a camera in their pocket now, but it's not a 5 or 6 mp pocket cam now it's a phone. I don't think that people will stop buying DSLR like cameras completely for serious use. There are times when everyone needs more than a cell phone or tablet camera can do. I think they'll just be migrating to smaller cameras like M43 or similar that they can pocket more easily as they also use their phone and tablet cameras. They'll still be buying cameras that change lenses. They'll just be buying them smaller.

DSLR's will still have a market with serious hobbyists and pros. It will be a smaller more specialized market, but there will be a market. The Mom and Pop and kids market? That's going to be mostly cell phones, tablets, and the odd mini camera like say the Q. People do still like being able to change out lenses, telephoto lenses and while you can actually use one with a cell or tablet, believe it or not they make them now, lol, it's not the same as having something better in your pocket for when you go on vacation or whatever. I can see the DSLR market shrinking but not vanishing completely. It may start being more of a pro thing than a normal use thing, but for the hobbyists and pros it is definitely what is needed.

We have likely hit market saturation when it comes to regular people and normal household use. The family DSLR, it's gotten so cheap that it's just like having another TV or PC for some people. You only need so many computers, so many TV's in one household. Particularly when you all have phones and tablets as well. DSLR's won't go away but they'll be used more by people who are really into their photography and not so much as the average family go to gadget cam...
11-22-2014, 01:40 AM   #71
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I don't really see DSLRs dying, what i see is the astonishing number of teens and 20-somethings who spend large amounts of money on "fancy" or "big" cameras (read: mid-range DSLR with kit lens and auto function that is the only setting ever used) so that they can take thousands of mediocre snapshots and bathroom mirror selfies in super high quality to post on facebook and put deep quotes under.
11-22-2014, 02:26 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZoeB Quote
I don't really see DSLRs dying, what i see is the astonishing number of teens and 20-somethings who spend large amounts of money on "fancy" or "big" cameras (read: mid-range DSLR with kit lens and auto function that is the only setting ever used) so that they can take thousands of mediocre snapshots and bathroom mirror selfies in super high quality to post on facebook and put deep quotes under.
What a bleak vision of humanity you have!
11-22-2014, 03:30 AM   #73
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Hehe, not really. Just a bit of a pet peeve for me when people buy DSLRs as a mark of status rather than to actually use them for what their made for. And, being an upper-middle class 20-something in one of the richest countries in the world myself, i tend to see it a lot :P
11-22-2014, 03:46 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
Convenience is #1 in a lot of people's minds.

Netflix doesn't have the picture quality (or the selection) of Blu-ray. People opt for Netflix because they don't have to leave the house.

Phone cameras aren't as capable or good as point and shoots, even. Despite this, 90% of Instagram and Facebook photos are probably taken with cell phones. Heck, there's 2 click processing software on those phones nows.

We live in a throw-it-away culture. Fixing things is expensive. Taking care of them is harder. Devices are made to last 3 years or so at which point they are expected to be replaced. Half the time the capacitors or other internals die after 5 years of use. Electronics are just not made to be kept for a long time, for the most part. (High-end stuff is, but few people buy it because it's, well, expensive.)
But "small" has also been an underlying theme of Pentax for years. When people talk about what a full frame Pentax could/should look like, the word "small" comes up a lot. But as long as they keep the mirror, it won't get very small. Certainly nothing like some of the small film SLRs of the past.

I see folks posting about the newest Sony Nex full frame camera and saying things like "this is what pentax should do" and "Pentax is once again behind the times." Can they sell a full frame SLR in this sort of market?
11-22-2014, 04:11 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Now, if you don;t mind me asking - What does something like that set you back?
For the sake of your marriage, don't even think about it Mark!

---------- Post added 11-22-14 at 10:14 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ZoeB Quote
Hehe, not really. Just a bit of a pet peeve for me when people buy DSLRs as a mark of status rather than to actually use them for what their made for. And, being an upper-middle class 20-something in one of the richest countries in the world myself, i tend to see it a lot :P
Actually that isn't new. Some people bought SLRs as a status symbol in the 1980s. They just left the setting on P.
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