[Rondec]

Canon (especially) and Nikon have a huge advantage in marketing power and name recognition. All kinds of people will buy whatever they make, even MILCs. How else can one explain all of the low end Rebel sales?

Canon is king of the cheap SLR. They have refurbished T3 with a kit lens on their site for 269. It is hard to match up with that and once folks buy into the Canon line -- even if it is with an older camera and a 50 f1.8, they tend to stay with them.

Professionals don't shift around much because of the cost of changing a lens line up and the acquisition of new gear is less important to them.

[Sliver-Surfer]

And neither had elecrical contacts, so adding AF wasn't really an option. Canon at least tried to add AF to FD and failed.

At one time Pentax had no contacts either. I was once a Minolta SLR guy and watched as Minolta began to die in the 90s. I think the only thing that can save Pentax DSLR is if they get serious with a Pro FF. Look at the big Car sellers..you need a race car on the world track to compete.

[RGlasel]

Look at the big Car sellers..you need a race car on the world track to compete

It takes a very inclusive definition of world track for this to be true. In Formula One, only two of the top ten automobile manufacturers are currently constructors (Daimler-Mercedes and Fiat-Ferrari) and if you include engine manufacturers, only three of the top ten (Nissan-Renault). All ten have some kind of involvement in racing, and technology does eventually make its way from the track to the street, but there is no correlation between how heavily involved a manufacturer is involved in racing and that manufacturer's relative position in the marketplace. Racing is a way to keep their best engineers inspired, and a venue to treat VIP customers.

[Sliver-Surfer]

It takes a very inclusive definition of world track for this to be true. In Formula One, only two of the top ten automobile manufacturers are currently constructors (Daimler-Mercedes and Fiat-Ferrari) and if you include engine manufacturers, only three of the top ten (Nissan-Renault). All ten have some kind of involvement in racing, and technology does eventually make its way from the track to the street, but there is no correlation between how heavily involved a manufacturer is involved in racing and that manufacturer's relative position in the marketplace. Racing is a way to keep their best engineers inspired, and a venue to treat VIP customers.

Formula one doesn't use real cars
Im saying Pentax needs A pro camera as their flagship

---

Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 11-27-2014 at 09:06 PM.

[boriscleto]

At one time Pentax had no contacts either. I was once a Minolta SLR guy and watched as Minolta began to die in the 90s. I think the only thing that can save Pentax DSLR is if they get serious with a Pro FF. Look at the big Car sellers..you need a race car on the world track to compete.

And neither did Nikon F. But obviously the engineers at Nikon and Pentax decided the mount had room to grow. The engineers at Canon and Minolta decided the mount needed to be replaced. Canon and Minolta both needed to increase the focal flange distance, and Minolta needed to widen the throat opening.

Pentax has its niche. Pro FF isn't it.

Minolta grabbed a lead in AF by stealing the technology from Honeywell. When Nikon and Canon caught up the writing was on the wall. It took Pentax even longer to catch up, and by then they didn't have the resources to keep up. But at least the brand still exists.

[RGlasel]

Im saying Pentax needs A pro camera as their flagship

And I'm saying your analogy was wrong, and your statement that Pentax needs a "pro" camera as their flagship is also wrong. For one thing, they have the P645Z as their flagship, so they already have a high-end fuller than FF flagship camera in their lineup. For another thing, a FF "pro" grade camera is not a necessity for a photographer to earn money by taking pictures. The tool doesn't give you talent, and no one pays money to see your tool. For yet another thing, professional photography is an industry declining faster than DSLRs, and the number of new "pro" photographers looking to spend significant money on a system that isn't manufactured by Canon or Nikon is too small to justify developing a new system to compete with Canon or Nikon. The only way to justify developing a FF Pentax camera is to sell it to existing Pentax users. And my final point is that if Pentax doesn't have a "pro" camera, then the millions of people who already bought Pentax cameras couldn't have bought them for that reason. But they bought Pentax cameras anyway.

[Sliver-Surfer]

And I'm saying your analogy was wrong, and your statement that Pentax needs a "pro" camera as their flagship is also wrong. For one thing, they have the P645Z as their flagship, so they already have a high-end fuller than FF flagship camera in their lineup. For another thing, a FF "pro" grade camera is not a necessity for a photographer to earn money by taking pictures. The tool doesn't give you talent, and no one pays money to see your tool. For yet another thing, professional photography is an industry declining faster than DSLRs, and the number of new "pro" photographers looking to spend significant money on a system that isn't manufactured by Canon or Nikon is too small to justify developing a new system to compete with Canon or Nikon. The only way to justify developing a FF Pentax camera is to sell it to existing Pentax users. And my final point is that if Pentax doesn't have a "pro" camera, then the millions of people who already bought Pentax cameras couldn't have bought them for that reason. But they bought Pentax cameras anyway.

My analogy is spot on. There are more professional photographers out there than ever, I don't know where you would get the idea that there isn't. Also for the most part you do need a ff to be taken seriously as a professional. It is true a tool doesn't give you talent but it is naive to think that the quality of the tool doesn't matter.

[Digitalis]

Last night I was looking at their Whole Plate film holders and each of them costs the same as did me Seneca Improved WP.

ah, but they are built to last and their film holders keep the film dead flat - which is a big deal with larger formats.

[clackers]

There are more professional photographers out there than ever

Hmm.

Your credibility is on the line here, Sliver-Surfer.

What proof do you have of your assertion?

[Nicolas06]

even Henry's doesn't keep them in store here anymore..I think pentax will stick around but just not the Pentax dslr

Pentax made K5 and K30 and now K3 & K50 a big success. They sold lot of them. They also sold lot of 645Z recently, factories could not even keep up with the demand.

We are in a modern world and many sell directly through the internet now, some of them only through the Internet. This is an heavy trend.

Pentax is well place on such medium because they have very interresting and well priced DSLR like K30/K50/K3 with good reviews.

[kooks]

I do think that the brand needs a FF body ( mirrorless or DSLR ) as their flagship in order to get back in the game of "pro systems".. Yes, Pentax have the 645Z and it have better image than many FF cameras around BUT, can everybody buy it?? can most photographers invest in a $8500 body.. + all the lenses that it needs?? 645Z is not for everybody just because it is too expensive for the average "pro" photographer.. + the normal reference around is FF, for many people they dont even know that the MF bodys exist. :/ ..

What is good about having a FF around the brand? it will give credibility to the buyers, it will give them a path of options from a K50, to K5ii to K3 and then if they want to they can jump to FF ( as Nikon, Sony and Canon do ).. to many people thats important, to have a chance, an option to jump forward within the same system, it makes the system stronger and not having a ceiling (like we have it now) for average photographers ( enthusiast + pro ) .. I dont think that an enthusiast photographer will jump from a K30/K50 to a 645Z just because is a nice camera.. but perhaps this same person can do it to a FF if they can use most of the lenses that they already own... in my town for example ( dont know about other places ) almost every photographer that is pro ( publish in magazines, newspapers, cover contests, big weddings, etc, etc ) uses a FF body, and many of them started using APS-C, and once they try a FF sensor they wont go back to APS-C because in some situations the image quality is not as good as in a FF ..

Within some photography "circles" having a FF camera is the standard.. some portrait, fashion, some sports, indoor events, etc ... but is not the same with other types.. adventure, nature, panoramic and others.. so NO, not everybody will need a FF, but it is nice to have the option to chose whatever fits better for you judging by the pictures that everyone takes..

I really think that releasing a FF will push the brand out of that "hole", people will start talking about that mysterous and glorious Pentax FF.. especially if they release it at a good price to compete againt the Sony system, this will send an strong message to Canikons and tell them "hey.. if you dont bring your prices down ur are going to be over soon.." ( perhaps not like that but.. thats the idea.. ).. and this will be good for all photographers no matter wich brand everyone is using.

As i said in other topic.. to me, 645Z is the Pentax big brother, thats for sure.. but this brother lives in another neighboor... we need a big brother that lives in the same street as we do.. so there is where a FF body fits in.. a body that can give the same image quality as D750, D810, 5Dmk3, A7ii, etc... but... thats just my opinion..

I also kind of agree with Silver-Surfer about the "There are more professional photographers out there than ever" .. now many people have DSLRs, and for some of them just the fact of using DSLR gives them the oportunity to charge money for their work ( without judging if is a good or bad work.. the fact is that they charge money so we can call them "pro" even if they are not really pros ), now days everybody can be whatever they want to photographers, djs, musicians, dancers, cheffs, etc.. some of them are really good, some of them are terribly bad..

[Clavius]

I really think that releasing a FF will push the brand out of that "hole", people will start talking about that mysterous and glorious Pentax FF.. especially if they release it at a good price to compete againt the Sony system, this will send an strong message to Canikons and tell them "hey.. if you dont bring your prices down ur are going to be over soon..".

All you say makes perfect sense. I agree especially with what I highlighted above. It would be a niche perfect for Pentax. Clearly (and understandably) they are unable to keep up with the bigger brands. They should quit the race for the latest&greatest, because then they'll always be to late. But focussing on a basic FF camera is something they can do right now. An FF camera priced below all competition doesn't need to be "cheap", it would just have less features.

[Nicolas06]

All you say makes perfect sense. I agree especially with what I highlighted above. It would be a niche perfect for Pentax. Clearly (and understandably) they are unable to keep up with the bigger brands. They should quit the race for the latest&greatest, because then they'll always be to late. But focussing on a basic FF camera is something they can do right now. An FF camera priced below all competition doesn't need to be "cheap", it would just have less features.

I do not think D610 has less features because they are costly... After all D7100 has many more features and cost less. The lack of feature for entry level FF is not that much to lower cost, but market segmentation: otherwise nobody would consider buying the more expensive D810.

[Nicolas06]

I do think that the brand needs a FF body ( mirrorless or DSLR ) as their flagship in order to get back in the game of "pro systems".. Yes, Pentax have the 645Z and it have better image than many FF cameras around BUT, can everybody buy it?? can most photographers invest in a $8500 body.. + all the lenses that it needs?? 645Z is not for everybody just because it is too expensive for the average "pro" photographer.. + the normal reference around is FF, for many people they dont even know that the MF bodys exist. :/ ..

Most newcomers in DSLR world don't even know that FF bodies exist. Even when you buy one and stay with the kit lenses you might not be aware of this. Often, it is only when you go through forum like Pentax forum that you learn from Pentax fan... that FF is the holy grail and you should buy one.

As for heavy tendancies, I see small and lighterweight camera to be an heavier trend than FF camera that finally fail to have small optics even with mirorless. Sony A7 is perfect example: the associated FE lenses are already quite big while behing somewhat slow.

FF might be a good idea for Pentax and many think one will be out in 2015... We will see, but brand like Olympus or Fuji seems to do just fine without plan for it and theirs client are ok with that. Idea is that is just too unpractical and APSC / m4/3 tend to be good enough for most situations.

The Sony experiment show something for sure. You might be able to make a quite small FF body... This doesn't give you a small system overall. The lenses count as much or better, in particular for the enthousiast that know that FF exist and will have more than just the kit lens in the long run.

[kooks]

And what about us?? Pentaxians.. do we need more features or do we just need the FF sensor?? perhaps the only thing that we need is something similar in features as the K3 ( with some small tweaks ) AND the FF sensor.. They always improve the already existing features so we can expect better AF, WR and all that.. as small new features we can say something like build in wifi??, flash sync at 1/250?? and maybeeee if they can do it at a good price.. tethering??..

Perhaps they can sell the k3 sucesor at around $1100 keeping it low .. and maybe a FF at $1600 ?? so they keep a $500 +/- breach between the 2 cameras... dont know.. just throwing ideas to the air...