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01-22-2015, 07:09 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
...what is the attraction in going back to owning a camera that doesn't do all the 'stuff' a modern camera can do?
For some people, "real photography" is only ISO, shutter, and aperture that you adjust yourself. Anything beyond rhat dilutes the purity of the photographic process.

01-22-2015, 07:19 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You're right... However, a camera does get cheaper , and possibly smaller, when certain features are not included. The price (and size) difference between DSLRs and MILCS with the same sensors already shows that replacing a mirror, mirror mechanism, focussing screen, prism, VF optics, and all the manual human labour that goes into calibrating that all, and replacing it with an electronic viewfinder, that doesn't even need calibrating , results in much cheaper and smaller cameras. Whilst delivering the same, some say more, image quality.

- For a lot of people, having no SR is no issue. Especially if your older, 2nd body, has it.
- Same goes for having no back LCD. If you have an EVF anyway, why not?
- Some people, especially a lot of Pentaxians with heaps of legacy glass, couldn't care less about AF. Ok, now this one might be more expensive. It would be something REALLY special, with an aperture coupler, stylish body and the fact that they won't be selling any lenses to their owners.
I don't how much savings there really is going from SLR to mirrorless. Maybe it would, but it seems like SLRs and mirrorless are priced pretty similarly for what they are. It really comes down to whether you prefer an EVF or an OVF.

Maybe the best future for Pentax is to turn into another Sony, but I don't really see it. They need to work at what they do best and not particularly try to match Nikon/Canon/Sony in their strength areas.
01-22-2015, 07:29 AM   #63
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Well I want something different..........
  • I want a large APS-H sensor with 20 megapixel.
  • I want a fully functional camera build like the K-3.
  • AF new with an extra ring of AF points around the current AF-module in the K-3 to cover a larger area.
  • I'm very happy with the functionality of the K-3 for stills. So 8.3 fps, large buffer, two cardslots.
  • Wifi, NFS, GPS and all those other things, I want them build in the camera.
  • I want a switchable system, also running Android 5.0 Lollipop. More functionality to connect to internet.
  • I want a large screen on the back of the camera giving me a 5 inch 16:9 wide screen. This way the buttons leave the back of the camera, but we can work with the camera touch screen.

This way I will be able to play Hay Day when I have to wait on a shooting scene......



01-22-2015, 07:30 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
In the mechanical age, electronics were expensive and mechanical parts cheaper. To make a basic camera with just what's needed, it made sense to leave out the electronics and the camera you ended up with was the K1000. In the digital age, the electronics are cheap and without electronics, there can be no camera at all. The mechanical elements are the luxury. If you follow the same philosophy as the K1000 in the modern age, it's the mechanical parts that are redundant and that path leads you to a simplified camera that looks like - shock, horror - the K-01!
The other day I was cleaning out the gear shelf, choosing which little-used cameras and lenses to sell off. I put the K-01 is the "Sell" column, along with a Super Tak 50 1.4 that was collecting dust. Then, for old times sake, I put the old Sup Tak on the K-01and took some photos. They're both staying. The experience is so much different than any other camera that I own. I think had Pentax given the K-01 some retro style and replaced the EVF with an OVF they might have had a minor hit on their hands.

I don't think this desire to simplify is about price, it's a response to our age of limitless choice and a rejection of this relentless pursuit of perfection. Millennials are buying old 30+ year old Honda motorcycles and riding cross country. 30-somethings are building and living in tiny houses. Others are going to record stores and buying vinyl. Others are buying single blade safety razors. It's a small slice of society, but it exists. A minimalist digital camera would fit within this gestalt quite nicely.

01-22-2015, 08:01 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't how much savings there really is going from SLR to mirrorless. Maybe it would, but it seems like SLRs and mirrorless are priced pretty similarly for what they are. It really comes down to whether you prefer an EVF or an OVF.
Currently I find these prices:
A7R - €1800,-
D810 - €3199,-
(It would be more fair to compare it to the D800 instead, but that's discontinued.)

So, two cameras with the same sensors. One definitely a lot cheaper. The most important difference being one of them lacking mirror, mirror mechanism, focussing screen, shims, prism, VF optics and manual human labour that goes into calibrating.

To be fair, they differ in capabilities too. But I can't imagine those causing the price to almost double. Most of the features are enabled / disabled by firmware. It must be the hardware and the manual labour.

Of course, other factors come into play too... One of the brands never had to really compete. Canon and Nikon danced around each others prices for decades without any other parties shaking up their little cartel.


QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe the best future for Pentax is to turn into another Sony, but I don't really see it. They need to work at what they do best and not particularly try to match Nikon/Canon/Sony in their strength areas.
Absolutely, they should not copy anyone else. That's why it's such a pity Pentax didn't beat Sony to it. They need to find a new niche to specialise in.
01-22-2015, 08:19 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I don't think this desire to simplify is about price,
You are correct, I think, but in my view, it's all about nostalgia. You don't see any 20 year olds asking for the caveman camera I think some people feel that if only the camera felt like their old Spotmatic did, photography would be fun again! The sad thing is, if they ever got the camera just the way they want, I'll be willing to bet that it still wouldn't make them better photographers...
01-22-2015, 08:24 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
The other day I was cleaning out the gear shelf, choosing which little-used cameras and lenses to sell off. I put the K-01 is the "Sell" column, along with a Super Tak 50 1.4 that was collecting dust. Then, for old times sake, I put the old Sup Tak on the K-01and took some photos. They're both staying. The experience is so much different than any other camera that I own. I think had Pentax given the K-01 some retro style and replaced the EVF with an OVF they might have had a minor hit on their hands.

I don't think this desire to simplify is about price, it's a response to our age of limitless choice and a rejection of this relentless pursuit of perfection. Millennials are buying old 30+ year old Honda motorcycles and riding cross country. 30-somethings are building and living in tiny houses. Others are going to record stores and buying vinyl. Others are buying single blade safety razors. It's a small slice of society, but it exists. A minimalist digital camera would fit within this gestalt quite nicely.
yap. that's what I read the other day in an article.

... and yes, I would love to build my own house and buy a VW camper to travel.

to the OP wish, I believe what you want is a film camera, they are out there and pretty cheap.
01-22-2015, 08:33 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
You are correct, I think, but in my view, it's all about nostalgia. You don't see any 20 year olds asking for the caveman camera I think some people feel that if only the camera felt like their old Spotmatic did, photography would be fun again! The sad thing is, if they ever got the camera just the way they want, I'll be willing to bet that it still wouldn't make them better photographers...
I think it's more than that. Again, 20-somethings are buying old Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles from the 70s and 80s…bikes that weren't that good when they were first released…and riding them cross-country, turning them into cafe racers, etc…. I did some research into this for a story I was writing and I've come to the conclusion that this is a way for them to reject their "programming." From a young age, the parents of this generation have pushed them to seek every advantage and always strive for the best-strive for the best schools, best youth sports teams, best extracurricular activities, etc… You would think that with this programming that they'd go out and seek the best motorcycles, best cars, best everything. But they are not. In the camera world, many are perfectly happing shooting Instagram with their iPhone or buying old film cameras or new Lomos.

For many, this fetish for the best that manifests itself in cameras, audio gear, kitchen cutlery, guitars, etc… is just not their thing. It's their parents' thing, and in some ways can be seen as a reflection of this era of reduced opportunity, reduced economic mobility, and reduced optimism that they are inheriting.

01-22-2015, 08:44 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I think it's more than that. Again, 20-somethings are buying old Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles from the 70s and 80s…bikes that weren't that good when they were first released…and riding them cross-country, turning them into cafe racers, etc…. I did some research into this for a story I was writing and I've come to the conclusion that this is a way for them to reject their "programming." From a young age, the parents of this generation have pushed them to seek every advantage and always strive for the best-strive for the best schools, best youth sports teams, best extracurricular activities, etc… You would think that with this programming that they'd go out and seek the best motorcycles, best cars, best everything. But they are not. In the camera world, many are perfectly happing shooting Instagram with their iPhone or buying old film cameras or new Lomos.

For many, this fetish for the best that manifests itself in cameras, audio gear, kitchen cutlery, guitars, etc… is just not their thing. It's their parents' thing, and in some ways can be seen as a reflection of this era of reduced opportunity, reduced economic mobility, and reduced optimism that they are inheriting.
Well what you are talking about exists - but the younger generation that wants the old look and feel are buying the Fuji stuff - because it has that old feel even though it has way too many modern features to be a caveman camera. And some young people are going straight to buying old film cameras - I sold my K1000 to an 18yo (I think) over a year ago. I do have a feeling that what we see here in the forums is something else, more nostalgia related.
01-22-2015, 08:45 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Currently I find these prices:
A7R - €1800,-
D810 - €3199,-
(It would be more fair to compare it to the D800 instead, but that's discontinued.)

So, two cameras with the same sensors. One definitely a lot cheaper. The most important difference being one of them lacking mirror, mirror mechanism, focussing screen, shims, prism, VF optics and manual human labour that goes into calibrating.

To be fair, they differ in capabilities too. But I can't imagine those causing the price to almost double. Most of the features are enabled / disabled by firmware. It must be the hardware and the manual labour.

Of course, other factors come into play too... One of the brands never had to really compete. Canon and Nikon danced around each others prices for decades without any other parties shaking up their little cartel.



Absolutely, they should not copy anyone else. That's why it's such a pity Pentax didn't beat Sony to it. They need to find a new niche to specialise in.
I think the D810 is in a different class with regard to specs and performance than the A7r, despite them sharing the same sensor.

The D610 and A7 seem closer with regard to specs and the D610 is 1490 and the A7 1290 on B and H. Some difference, but not huge. A camera is certainly more than the sensor. Just because the K30 and K5 share the same sensor doesn't mean that they are the same camera, but there is a tendency to think that cameras with the same sensor are the same and will be priced the same.
01-22-2015, 08:51 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
Well what you are talking about exists - but the younger generation that wants the old look and feel are buying the Fuji stuff - because it has that old feel even though it has way too many modern features to be a caveman camera. And some young people are going straight to buying old film cameras - I sold my K1000 to an 18yo (I think) over a year ago. I do have a feeling that what we see here in the forums is something else, more nostalgia related.
Perhaps in this forum, yes, because the demographics here seem to skew older. But there are younger folks out there looking for a simpler experience. Yeah, they may buy Fuji and film cameras now, but that doesn't mean that Pentax can't or shouldn't go after a piece of the pie if they think there's money to be made there. Heck, I've mentioned it before…they should revive the Takumar name for this.

Another story-I've got a friend that teaches photography at a local high school. After winter break, some kids came in and said, "Yeah, my folks bought me a digital camera for Christmas, but I hate it. Can we still use the darkroom?"
01-22-2015, 08:54 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You're right... However, a camera does get cheaper , and possibly smaller, when certain features are not included. The price (and size) difference between DSLRs and MILCS with the same sensors already shows that replacing a mirror, mirror mechanism, focussing screen, prism, VF optics, and all the manual human labour that goes into calibrating that all, and replacing it with an electronic viewfinder, that doesn't even need calibrating , results in much cheaper and smaller cameras. Whilst delivering the same, some say more, image quality.

- For a lot of people, having no SR is no issue. Especially if your older, 2nd body, has it.
- Same goes for having no back LCD. If you have an EVF anyway, why not?
- Some people, especially a lot of Pentaxians with heaps of legacy glass, couldn't care less about AF. Ok, now this one might be more expensive. It would be something REALLY special, with an aperture coupler, stylish body and the fact that they won't be selling any lenses to their owners.
No SR is a bit of an issue IMHO... not as much for stills as for video for me personally (it doesn't help me that much for stills, weirdly enough). Keep in mind that for Pentax most lenses do not have SR, so it has to be in the body. It would save some space, weight and money though.


No back LCD... that's a tough one. Sometimes you may want to use it to show it to others. Or when I record a video I want to hold the camera further away from my body while walking. If you can easily attach a smartphone via WiFi then that's maybe different... Also good quality screens aren't too expensive. Just look at how much smartphone screens cost.


No AF... how about sensors that come with AF? How about only AF in live view mode, and having a brighter viewfinder in turn? So when you really need AF, you've got live view, and you can focus there. I can also see them dropping the screw drive motor.


But overall any of these limitations, especially when they bring little or no benefits severely limits the audience it appeals to. And for different people different things are important and can't be left away, so basically they'd have to do 10 bodies to appeal to all of them. It's probably easier and cheaper to only make one body that does everything, and to offer the option to deactivate the features. People want to be able to do things on their own... to deactivate the assistance, but will they be willing to give it up completely? With a film camera that's easy, they are cheap. You can have a body that does nothing but take photos, but still have another camera that does everything. Having different digital bodies to do that is expensive though. Being able to easily deactivate everything though, maybe that's appealing? To be able to say, for the rest of the day this camera will only be in M mode, with no AF.


As for Instagram and iPhone... it's easy, it's convenient. You don't have to do everything manually. And you can share it immediately. What is proposed in this thread is the exact opposite of that. It's designed to hone your skill as a photographer. To make it into a pleasurable experience for those who like to tinker, who want to feel the accomplishment of having done something yourself, by hand. (But won't those people rather shoot film?)
01-22-2015, 08:58 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Perhaps in this forum, yes, because the demographics here seem to skew older. But there are younger folks out there looking for a simpler experience. Yeah, they may buy Fuji and film cameras now, but that doesn't mean that Pentax can't or shouldn't go after a piece of the pie if they think there's money to be made there. Heck, I've mentioned it before…they should revive the Takumar name for this."
They have to sell a certain number of cameras to make up the R&D for any product they sell... even if it's a K-50 or K-S1 put into a new body with hardly any controls.

You are right, I think there's a market for it, but I don't think it would look like the caveman camera people here look for. There's a market for a modern camera (full featured!!) with a retro feel - Fuji's proven that. But not for a completely retro concept that has a digital sensor in it.
01-22-2015, 09:08 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
They have to sell a certain number of cameras to make up the R&D for any product they sell... even if it's a K-50 or K-S1 put into a new body with hardly any controls.

You are right, I think there's a market for it, but I don't think it would look like the caveman camera people here look for. There's a market for a modern camera (full featured!!) with a retro feel - Fuji's proven that. But not for a completely retro concept that has a digital sensor in it.
I don't know, because totally retro motorcycles like the Royal Enfield are hot right now. That's a design and mechanicals quite literally unchanged from the 1950s. In other words, an old piece of junk by today's standards. But so are Triumph Bonnevilles and Moto Guzzi V7s, more akin to modern day Fuji cameras. In some circles, the Royal Enfield has more street cred because it's more authentic.
01-22-2015, 09:26 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I don't know, because totally retro motorcycles like the Royal Enfield are hot right now. That's a design and mechanicals quite literally unchanged from the 1950s. In other words, an old piece of junk by today's standards. But so are Triumph Bonnevilles and Moto Guzzi V7s, more akin to modern day Fuji cameras. In some circles, the Royal Enfield has more street cred because it's more authentic.
Well, maybe it will come to that. Motorcycles create a scene, I don't kinow if cameras are capable of doing that. Oh wait... there's already one, it's the Leica crowd

Like the Royal Enfield is everything a 50s bike was, the (film) Leica is still everything a 50s camera was. Which means a digital counterpart probably wouldn't cut it - for the retro scene, it kind has to be film, doesn't it? Just applying the same logic as the retro bike.
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