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01-25-2015, 02:39 AM   #91
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Maybe I'am wrong and maybe in the creative world, photographers are not accustomed to see the method, the gear and tools used part of the contract.

I'am an engineer, computer science engineer and I can say it is very common that the client want/need specific gear, tools, methodology. In many job, the ways to do things etc are all codified, even sometime written in the law. And as an engineer I don't like it more. But if I actually used the methodology and tools I'd like to, I'll be fired and would have difficulties getting a paid job. That's how it is. Freedom to do what you want usually comes with a cost... And not all battle are worth to take.

I know that if I was looking for a photographer depending on the price I'll pay I'll be more or less picky. Knowing the woman has an expensive FF or better yet MF would comfort me in thinking she is knowing what she is doing. If the woman has an APSC or m4/3 camera would not help seal the deal. It would be part of sign she is not as pro as she trying to convince me. In a sence she would need to make even better photos to convince me. That like you buy an average of many things. If you are not as good as other in some area, you need to compensate.

I like Pentax and I like my APSC body. But I'am not taking photos for a living and I value things like gear weight/size greatly personally. If I get a pro like your wife, I would hope she would use the best gear for the job.

And that the thing. Here the wife do not show enough she is professionnal. I mean I have nothing against her and she may do a wonderfull job. But apparently she doesn't make lot of money out of it (bad sign), have only a few jobs/contract per year (bad sign), doesn't have pro gear neither (bad sign). It is not Pentax brand. If is was just 645D it would look more serious.

The client don't know you etc and if they have a doubt and are not totally convinced, they will go elsewhere. It is not like all photographers make so much money and get so many jobs that it is very difficult to get anyone. The client is not here to be kind, he is here to get a service. And if you refuse to match his needs, he will go elsewhere. The question for the photographer is if he need the job or not.

Do in the end she need better gear? That could be it and that should be pretty easy to try. I mean you can get the gear for 5000$ while for many jobs it would be more 50000 or 500000$. Photo gear is quite unexpensive.

But maybe she also need to work her pitch overall to convince the client, see also if what she show/sell is really at same level or better as what the other photographer provide and the price are ok. Many are true there pointing that it might not be (or not only) the gear that the problem.

I would try first to have plainty of work and well paid work if possible. Then when everybody start to know me and sell good words of me, I get for sure much more freedom. I can choose the gear, my style... Refuse clients that I don't like... But this comes when you are already successfull, not when you still struggle. I would say even more... If I already have good rep and so on and make lot of money, I would think if I couldn't grow and get other photographers to help me and get more contracts.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-25-2015 at 02:48 AM.
01-25-2015, 07:31 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Maybe I'am wrong and maybe in the creative world, photographers are not accustomed to see the method, the gear and tools used part of the contract.

I'am an engineer, computer science engineer and I can say it is very common that the client want/need specific gear, tools, methodology. In many job, the ways to do things etc are all codified, even sometime written in the law. And as an engineer I don't like it more. But if I actually used the methodology and tools I'd like to, I'll be fired and would have difficulties getting a paid job. That's how it is. Freedom to do what you want usually comes with a cost... And not all battle are worth to take.
It is a different business. And your clients usually have either in house expertise or have already made an arrangement with the vendor. As well, it is a nice informal way to enforce a cartel or special dealings. Someone somewhere has done a sales job, and you have to deal with it. And in the end, they are buying an implementation based on that particular hardware.

In this case it comes down to defining what the person is buying. They aren't buying hardware, they aren't buying a Canon or Nikon camera. If they want to they can go to B&H and order one. They are buying someone to capture a set of scenes and to product a result they can look at.

Someone somewhere has bought a sales pitch that tells them that a good photograph is the result of using a specific brand. That is not true at all, and as a professional if you go along with that you are giving the value of the work away to someone else. You as a business person need, and this is very very important, need to establish clearly your value added in the transaction. The more you and your skill add value, the more profitable the job is. If you allow the value added to be defined by someone else as something that they sell, you devalue your service and end up quoting on being the cheapest shutter button pusher on the market. It could be that the competition is saying that their value added is that they use Nikon or something. Fine. That is piggybacking onto the enormous marketing efforts of Nikon. But everyone can buy a Nikon, it isn't like a franchise where that value is protected. As a service business your service is your value added, and a reputation for excellence will allow you to get the premium price.

This applies to whatever hardware you choose to use.
01-25-2015, 07:54 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
It is a different business. And your clients usually have either in house expertise or have already made an arrangement with the vendor. As well, it is a nice informal way to enforce a cartel or special dealings. Someone somewhere has done a sales job, and you have to deal with it. And in the end, they are buying an implementation based on that particular hardware.

In this case it comes down to defining what the person is buying. They aren't buying hardware, they aren't buying a Canon or Nikon camera. If they want to they can go to B&H and order one. They are buying someone to capture a set of scenes and to product a result they can look at.

Someone somewhere has bought a sales pitch that tells them that a good photograph is the result of using a specific brand. That is not true at all, and as a professional if you go along with that you are giving the value of the work away to someone else. You as a business person need, and this is very very important, need to establish clearly your value added in the transaction. The more you and your skill add value, the more profitable the job is. If you allow the value added to be defined by someone else as something that they sell, you devalue your service and end up quoting on being the cheapest shutter button pusher on the market. It could be that the competition is saying that their value added is that they use Nikon or something. Fine. That is piggybacking onto the enormous marketing efforts of Nikon. But everyone can buy a Nikon, it isn't like a franchise where that value is protected. As a service business your service is your value added, and a reputation for excellence will allow you to get the premium price.

This applies to whatever hardware you choose to use.
To be clear for the computer science part.
- A great share of the work in computer science do not involve selling gear at all. What is sold more often is software, services and maintenance contracts. My current company operate its own hardware and provide the service, a bit like a cloud provider with "software as a service", except the model was create long before "cloud" term was coined, 25 years ago.

For the photographer part.

It is obvious for the established photographers (or whatever other company) that the higher the barrier to entry is, the easier it is for them to prevent newcomers to steal their job. So obviously saying that you need FF from Canikon and associated lenses to look serious or even better you'd need MF but also 2-3 persons to go for the job with lot of lighting gear will simply prevent the small one like the poster wife to try, get some jobs and in the long run getting a good share of the market.

This is not to say that the value of the photographer comes from the gear, but if you can level up the pre-requisites that you already meet, that better for you. So you can say you use pro-level gear, that you graduated a well known photographic school and that you have already lot of experience. It is also clear to me that if 2-3 persons come to the wedding, set the lighting and so and use the best hardware that exist, it will help level their game and get good results out of it. Canikon may be an over simplification (I would not trust more Canikon gear equivalent to Pentax one) but to say there never a different in the result between say MF and m4/3 and that the gear doesn't play a part in the final picture is not true. As a client if the pro can't even cope with the standar gear (FF Canikon) I would think he is not very serious or doing that well... Except if I have proof he really know what he is doing.

Want to use Pentax APSC gear? Well this mean you need to be better on the other parts to compensate.

ou should not define yourself by your gear, but saying you use the best doesn't hurt, all the contrary.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-25-2015 at 08:14 AM.
01-25-2015, 12:17 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Maybe I'am wrong and maybe in the creative world, photographers are not accustomed to see the method, the gear and tools used part of the contract.

I know that if I was looking for a photographer depending on the price I'll pay I'll be more or less picky. Knowing the woman has an expensive FF or better yet MF would comfort me in thinking she is knowing what she is doing. If the woman has an APSC or m4/3 camera would not help seal the deal. It would be part of sign she is not as pro as she trying to convince me. In a sence she would need to make even better photos to convince me. That like you buy an average of many things. If you are not as good as other in some area, you need to compensate.

I like Pentax and I like my APSC body. But I'am not taking photos for a living and I value things like gear weight/size greatly personally. If I get a pro like your wife, I would hope she would use the best gear for the job.

And that the thing. Here the wife do not show enough she is professionnal. I mean I have nothing against her and she may do a wonderfull job. But apparently she doesn't make lot of money out of it (bad sign), have only a few jobs/contract per year (bad sign), doesn't have pro gear neither (bad sign). It is not Pentax brand. If is was just 645D it would look more serious.

The client don't know you etc and if they have a doubt and are not totally convinced, they will go elsewhere. It is not like all photographers make so much money and get so many jobs that it is very difficult to get anyone. The client is not here to be kind, he is here to get a service. And if you refuse to match his needs, he will go elsewhere. The question for the photographer is if he need the job or not.

Do in the end she need better gear? That could be it and that should be pretty easy to try. I mean you can get the gear for 5000$ while for many jobs it would be more 50000 or 500000$. Photo gear is quite unexpensive.

But maybe she also need to work her pitch overall to convince the client, see also if what she show/sell is really at same level or better as what the other photographer provide and the price are ok. Many are true there pointing that it might not be (or not only) the gear that the problem.

I would try first to have plainty of work and well paid work if possible. Then when everybody start to know me and sell good words of me, I get for sure much more freedom. I can choose the gear, my style... Refuse clients that I don't like... But this comes when you are already successfull, not when you still struggle. I would say even more... If I already have good rep and so on and make lot of money, I would think if I couldn't grow and get other photographers to help me and get more contracts.
As for the full frame meaning they know what they're doing, I've got a friend that has a 5dmkiii because she wanted to be a Canon snob. She shoots auto modes with it.

While I agree that something like the 1D would look more professional, I shoot a 1Dii at a part time job and it's a 1.3 crop, so even it's not full frame. I think it's ridiculous that people turn you down for shooting a brand that takes good images.

01-25-2015, 12:43 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by willskywalker93 Quote
As for the full frame meaning they know what they're doing, I've got a friend that has a 5dmkiii because she wanted to be a Canon snob. She shoots auto modes with it.

While I agree that something like the 1D would look more professional, I shoot a 1Dii at a part time job and it's a 1.3 crop, so even it's not full frame. I think it's ridiculous that people turn you down for shooting a brand that takes good images.
This is ridiculous maybe but what do you mean yourself? You think you can't achieve as pleasing image with a Canon and their lenses? I'd admit the ltd look is a bit unique but overall Canon lense is far from being bad. Pentax is just different, not better.

The thing is the more expensive the gear, the less likely it is used by a beginer. This is no proof and the principle is used by many to full people, but that a basic and comon assumption.

We can dislike it, flight it, but we have to know it is here and take it into account. Umprepared otherwise you get the same issue has the OP wife here. 5 contracts, this alone would have paid for a Canon FF with 2 L zoom lenses or 3-4 great prime. And there no point denying you have more possibilities with FF gear than with APSC gear in the end. Maybe this don't show all the time or even more than 10% of the time, but theses 10% can make the difference, in particular for a pro that has to deliver all the time. Take the brenitzer method... It would simply not work with a DA70 and K5. You would need at least an f/1.4 lense. Take the indoor shoots f/2.8 iso3200 doesn't mean the same quality in the end from APSC and FF...

This is in particular because the typicall photographer client know nothing of photography that he should be prepared to show them he is great and be able at least to respond to their questions.
01-25-2015, 01:19 PM   #96
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Oh, I understand the point you were making and that Canon does have a much wider range of gear. And sure, FF definitely has benefits. I'm not disagreeing that the OP should go Canon if it's going to make the difference in revenue, not to mention the wider availability of Canikon parts/lenses for a fix in a pinch.

Sorry if there was mixup, I was just mentioning as I'm sure others have that often times its the photographer that makes the gear. I suppose it was an unnecessary reiteration.
01-25-2015, 01:41 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by willskywalker93 Quote
Oh, I understand the point you were making and that Canon does have a much wider range of gear. And sure, FF definitely has benefits. I'm not disagreeing that the OP should go Canon if it's going to make the difference in revenue, not to mention the wider availability of Canikon parts/lenses for a fix in a pinch.

Sorry if there was mixup, I was just mentioning as I'm sure others have that often times its the photographer that makes the gear. I suppose it was an unnecessary reiteration.
Sure the photographer make the gear. A photographer teacher shooted a wedding only with his iphone and post processing only with apps from the phone. He subscribed to a challenge and finished at the 4th place.

He didn't do that as a paid job, but to show to his student they were relying to much on their gear and not enough on their own skill. What is most important is to convey the emotion, to show the people. It is here: The Wedding of Josh and Amber (Select shots taken with the iPhone) | Jerry Ghionis

But better gear also help in many circonstances. In particular, this other try, still with an iphone would have greatly benefited from some subject isolation for at least some shoots, and overall lower noise levels: https://fstoppers.com/wedding/entire-wedding-shot-iphone-and-processed-using-instagram-5286

I would think still that the first photographer know better the limitation of the gear and did a superior job focussing on narrower framing and black and white as a workaround. He also convey more emotions, at least to me.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-25-2015 at 01:50 PM.
01-25-2015, 01:58 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
And your clients usually have either in house expertise or have already made an arrangement with the vendor..
The latter is exceptionally common. There's contracts all over the place in engineering and construction. Other times, specific tools are used because it scores points with the proper authorities and other PR sections.

Example: I work for a federal agency. There was a piece of software we needed. We wanted to buy it from the producers ("company X") directly but it couldn't be done. Instead, we bought it from company Y, who did nothing more than buy it from company X and resell it to us at a markup. Why? Because company Y was owned by a minority woman, so by doing this, our agency could say that a certain percentage of purchase agreements went to minority and/or woman owned businesses. This sort of thing is very common in government applications. I suspect that it is also common among companies that seek government contracts (the Raytheons, Northops, Boeings, etc.) because being able to boast diversity numbers matters to Congress, who ultimately hands out the money that is then handed out to the contracting companies.

01-25-2015, 03:15 PM - 1 Like   #99
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With respect to the comments about customers in different industries selecting the tools that others use:

A wedding photography customer is buying prints and processed jpgs. They are probably not buying the unprocessed raw files, so the choice of camera and printer brand are inconsequential and shouldn't be important. Regardless, if customers care about brand and you want customers, then you may have to change to CaNikon. (Those same poorly informed customers might see "Canon" and not know it's an obsolete entry level model unsuitable for wedding photography).

Clients for custom software, engineering, and architecture have valid reasons to specify "brand". If my office uses Microsoft Windows and you deliver something for Apple the project has failed. I also care about the programming language if my programmers are going to assume support responsibilities after the contract ends.
01-25-2015, 07:55 PM   #100
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Want to impress a customer with your Canon or Nikon pro gear?

Get one of this... available fot $9.99 through some ebay vendors!!! Take it to your first meeting with potental custmer!!!



01-25-2015, 09:26 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
Trying to sell them on the merits of the camera is an exercise in futility. If they knew anything, they wouldn't have asked this question to begin with--and you can't convince someone who's understanding is based on "I read on the internet that..." or "Freddie says that..."
well the whole goal is to make their eyes glaze over with information overload. And, since they are judging photographic skill simply by hardware possessed, why not fill them with a load of spec sheets, charts, and comparison information? If they think you know what you are talking about, they will be less quick to question the brand name of the gear. And, if they know anything about photographic equipment, you'll have the facts to show they have no need to be concerned... covered either way.
01-25-2015, 11:27 PM   #102
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Its a shame people have to be that way. Buy her a Nikon.
01-26-2015, 12:14 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Maybe I'am wrong and maybe in the creative world, photographers are not accustomed to see the method, the gear and tools used part of the contract.

I'am an engineer, computer science engineer and I can say it is very common that the client want/need specific gear, tools, methodology. In many job, the ways to do things etc are all codified, even sometime written in the law. And as an engineer I don't like it more. But if I actually used the methodology and tools I'd like to, I'll be fired and would have difficulties getting a paid job. That's how it is. Freedom to do what you want usually comes with a cost... And not all battle are worth to take.

I know that if I was looking for a photographer depending on the price I'll pay I'll be more or less picky. Knowing the woman has an expensive FF or better yet MF would comfort me in thinking she is knowing what she is doing. If the woman has an APSC or m4/3 camera would not help seal the deal. It would be part of sign she is not as pro as she trying to convince me. In a sence she would need to make even better photos to convince me. That like you buy an average of many things. If you are not as good as other in some area, you need to compensate.

I like Pentax and I like my APSC body. But I'am not taking photos for a living and I value things like gear weight/size greatly personally. If I get a pro like your wife, I would hope she would use the best gear for the job.

And that the thing. Here the wife do not show enough she is professionnal. I mean I have nothing against her and she may do a wonderfull job. But apparently she doesn't make lot of money out of it (bad sign), have only a few jobs/contract per year (bad sign), doesn't have pro gear neither (bad sign). It is not Pentax brand. If is was just 645D it would look more serious.

The client don't know you etc and if they have a doubt and are not totally convinced, they will go elsewhere. It is not like all photographers make so much money and get so many jobs that it is very difficult to get anyone. The client is not here to be kind, he is here to get a service. And if you refuse to match his needs, he will go elsewhere. The question for the photographer is if he need the job or not.

Do in the end she need better gear? That could be it and that should be pretty easy to try. I mean you can get the gear for 5000$ while for many jobs it would be more 50000 or 500000$. Photo gear is quite unexpensive.

But maybe she also need to work her pitch overall to convince the client, see also if what she show/sell is really at same level or better as what the other photographer provide and the price are ok. Many are true there pointing that it might not be (or not only) the gear that the problem.

I would try first to have plainty of work and well paid work if possible. Then when everybody start to know me and sell good words of me, I get for sure much more freedom. I can choose the gear, my style... Refuse clients that I don't like... But this comes when you are already successfull, not when you still struggle. I would say even more... If I already have good rep and so on and make lot of money, I would think if I couldn't grow and get other photographers to help me and get more contracts.

I think you should meet Zach Arias:
01-26-2015, 12:42 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZoeB Quote
I think you should meet Zach Arias: Crop Sensors vs Full Frame :: Crop Or Crap? - YouTube
A classic. Zak arias say the same as me: a bigger sensitive area make for better photos.

He is just paid to say that there no difference between APSC & FF because Fuji pay him and produce APSC cameras. I would agree with him for my amateur case where I'am not that much into event/low light it is far from being key.

Still for the same deph of field, the FF would allow a smaller apperture meaning the lens would have better contrast, colors and less optical aberations overall. I can really say to you that my FA77 is visibly better at f/4 than f/2.8 for example... And it is better at f/2.8 than f/2... Most lenses, even high end follow this pattern. This alone, to be able to shoot much more often at a smaller apperture where the lense is visibly better make a good share of the difference.

Still for low light shoot, if you can afford a small dof (like for a portrait) you'll get more margin for high isos. This mean by getting a pair of f/2.8 high end zoom you can get lower noise than with the same kind of f/2.8 zoom on APSC. There primes, that true but this is not always the best choice for events like wedding to rely only on primes.

And well nobody said that shooting MF digital or film is forbidden. He is specifically saying that much bigger sensitive surface do make a noticable difference.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-26-2015 at 01:01 AM.
01-26-2015, 12:54 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
With respect to the comments about customers in different industries selecting the tools that others use:

A wedding photography customer is buying prints and processed jpgs. They are probably not buying the unprocessed raw files, so the choice of camera and printer brand are inconsequential and shouldn't be important. Regardless, if customers care about brand and you want customers, then you may have to change to CaNikon. (Those same poorly informed customers might see "Canon" and not know it's an obsolete entry level model unsuitable for wedding photography).
This is a theory. Actually when you sign the contract, the actual print and processed jpegs are not available to look for. Not the one client is interrested into: the one of his own wedding.

So the client will try to assess if you are a good photographer and if he is making the right choice. He might be 1 client out of 100 for you but for him, he may get married once in a lifetime and even through the money he give you might appear to no be that much for the work and after taxes, this is still lot of money for him.

Many would discuss what lense to buy next for months, even sometime used lenses worth 50$. Why would ther client be denied to try assest who is the best photographer for him?

He might not know how to best compare the offering, but he his fully legitimate to try.

Many pro dismiss Pentax anyway and many amateurs too. How would you expect a guy that know nothing to have high opinion of Pentax then? He might ask his friend, and some photo amateur may have said to him the pro should use Canikon. What count is that if the client has any doubts, he will go somebody else. that's how it is.

So he will look for how you dress, how you speak, if you please him or not, he will look for your porfollio of course, he will ask questions and you better have good responses.

This may not be to say you shoot Canon if he ask, Pentax might be good, but you need to be prepared... And if you don't the good pich to convince him, he will go away. That's all.

And well if I would be him, thinking you shoot Pentax APSC would not send good signs to me. I would think there no enough money to get better gear... And let's be honest this is more or less the issue of the OP wife here... She is using her husband gear until she can afford her own gear.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-26-2015 at 01:08 AM.
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