Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-26-2015, 01:11 AM   #106
Veteran Member
ZoeB's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
A classic. Zak arias say the same as me: a bigger sensitive area make for better photos.

He is just paid to say that there no difference between APSC & FF because Fuji pay him and produce APSC cameras. I would agree with him for my amateur case where I'am not that much into event/low light it is far from being key.

Still for the same deph of field, the FF would allow a smaller apperture meaning the lens would have better contrast, colors and less optical aberations overall. I can really say to you that my FA77 is visibly better at f/4 than f/2.8 for example... And it is better at f/2.8 than f/2... Most lenses, even high end follow this pattern. This alone, to be able to shoot much more often at a smaller apperture where the lense is visibly better make a good share of the difference.

Still for low light shoot, if you can afford a small dof (like for a portrait) you'll get more margin for high isos. This mean by getting a pair of f/2.8 high end zoom you can get lower noise than with the same kind of f/2.8 zoom on APSC. There primes, that true but this is not always the best choice for events like wedding to rely only on primes.

And well nobody said that shooting MF digital or film is forbidden. He is specifically saying that much bigger sensitive surface do make a noticable difference.
I'm not disagreeing that a larger sensitive area has all of the advantages that you mentioned, my point, and the point of the video is that the difference between APS-C and FF sensors is negligible. And yes, he's sponsored by Fuji. So what? I like to have enough faith in people to think that they won't take a sponsor deal unless they actually like and will use the products that are being offered. Yes, there's a clear advantage to the bigger sensor, but (as also pointed out in that video), the photographer is the one who makes or breaks the image. I'd be willing to bet that somebody like Zach Arias could probably take better iPhone photos than a Canikon user with a FF camera left in auto.

01-26-2015, 08:12 AM   #107
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,703
QuoteOriginally posted by ZoeB Quote
I'm not disagreeing that a larger sensitive area has all of the advantages that you mentioned, my point, and the point of the video is that the difference between APS-C and FF sensors is negligible. And yes, he's sponsored by Fuji. So what? I like to have enough faith in people to think that they won't take a sponsor deal unless they actually like and will use the products that are being offered. Yes, there's a clear advantage to the bigger sensor, but (as also pointed out in that video), the photographer is the one who makes or breaks the image. I'd be willing to bet that somebody like Zach Arias could probably take better iPhone photos than a Canikon user with a FF camera left in auto.
We don't speak of hypothetic beginers in auto mode. We speak of pro doing wedding. So the hypothetis is they are ALL great photographers. If it is not the case for sure, they have a big issue with their job.

I don't get why weddings shoots are not worth shooting on MF digital or film, or FF. I don't get with many photographer consider logical to discuss for day if that lense is better than this other one, that they need f/1.2 vs f/1.4... That they need FF...

But suddendly if I go to them for getting a service, that I pay high money for it... They would use the basic gear explaining that anyway the difference is negligible. This is not fair.

No the guys can argue for f/1.2 vs f/1.4 they can argue for difference in rendering. They'd argue they need FF, they'd argue they need f/1.4, they argue they want perfect sharpness.

All of this is key to them.

But the day I pay for it... The difference negligible. Pixie dust for my wedding shoot? Who care? Shallow deph of field ? Useless. Low iso ? Noise is so good ! Rendering of an MF digital or MF film? There no difference with an iphone, why would you ever ask for that ? Using the lense at its best apperture? That's for loosers.

Yeah I really wonder will the client would ever look for another photographer with arguments like that.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 01-26-2015 at 08:20 AM.
01-26-2015, 09:09 AM - 5 Likes   #108
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,861
I loved the quote from a few years ago. One of the models Benjikan shot for a major magazine said " I wouldn't get him out of bed for less than a $10k shoot." At the time he was shooting with a K-5. I don't know how to say this more politely, but you people are nuts, bonkers, out of your minds, totally tutti-fruity, if you think the camera you shoot with is going to get you more work. This is a total non-factor. This is the advice, that gets people to invest in new systems worth thousands of dollars hoping to attract new business. For nothing. If your work doesn't stand out, people won't hire you. If your work does stand out, people won't care what you shoot. Your portfolio has to inspire people to think "that's the look I want." You don't have any artistic vision, there's a million other photographers who's work looks like yours? You need to develop your style to the point where people look at you work and identify it with you. Otherwise, you may as well be working down at Walmart in the portrait studio. (and you'll be working for Walmart wages.) Going for the FF, narrow DoF look, sorry there's a million guys with that look. Going for the MF big image thing, there's thousands of guys with that look. I don't know how to say this forcefully enough. Your gear isn't going to get you work.

A lot of what's been posted here is camera marketing hogwash, worthy of the guy behind the counters at the local camera store, who's trying to work up a commission, but not on a camera forum.

There's one reason for shooting full frame. It suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting APS_C- it suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting Medium Format - it suits your style.

The reason most people can't get work in photography is.... they have no style.
Changing camera systems won't help that.

But changing camera systems can make you lighter, less bulky, easier moving in trenches, and more comfortable at work.

You guys really, really need to get off this, bandwagon. Sooner or later it's going to mess you up.

Quit developing gear lists, start developing a shooting style. That's what will differentiate you from the mob.

Last edited by normhead; 01-26-2015 at 09:52 AM.
01-26-2015, 11:33 AM   #109
Veteran Member
ZoeB's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Posts: 886
Amen, mate.

01-26-2015, 11:44 AM   #110
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Manteca, CA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,653
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
There's one reason for shooting full frame. It suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting APS_C- it suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting Medium Format - it suits your style.

The reason most people can't get work in photography is.... they have no style.
Changing camera systems won't help that.
I will disagree with that. There are benefits to different systems, each has their own. But to chock it up to someone not having style being the reason they dont get the work is a broad generalization. I stated what my wife said, and she said it because she didnt get the job because the client actually stated she didnt get the job because of the camera she uses.

Its not always lack of style, there are so many facets that go into locking up a job. tog A may have a style that I am totally in love with but may also be a complete ass, which would make me not want to hire them. I could go into hundreds of scenarios where someone will or will not hire you but with the digital SLR being made so cheap, it is now widely available to everyone out there. Therefore because you have someone that shoots with a EOS Rebel camera and can produce some bokeh in their photos, they feel they can call themselves photographers. This has caused an influx in CHEAP photographers so the market is much more fickle than it used to be. You cant take someone at their word anymore, and sometimes, you cant take someone for just their portfolio either.
01-26-2015, 12:08 PM   #111
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,861
QuoteOriginally posted by j2photos Quote
I will disagree with that. There are benefits to different systems, each has their own. But to chock it up to someone not having style being the reason they dont get the work is a broad generalization. I stated what my wife said, and she said it because she didnt get the job because the client actually stated she didnt get the job because of the camera she uses.
That was the excuse the guy gave.....

This guy was some expert on photography? Was it Peter Lik?

Did we even establish that he knew the difference between an FF image and an APS-c image? Like why you would want one over the other?

QuoteQuote:
There are benefits to different systems, each has their own.
The benefits to a camera system is, you are able to accomplish the goals your style demands with it.

You can buy an FF system and never take a decent image that requires FF equipment.

I'm not saying your wife wouldn't benefit greatly from an FF system. I'm saying, you aren't saying the things that convince me she does. There was a guy on here a while ago, Easyrider I believe, I was probably one of the first to tell him, his style demanded full frame, he was wasting his time with APS-c. I was able to do that because, he posted a few prints of his favourite images with exif attached..

I can't go into all the factors that would be considered here, but if I examined a few images and analyzed the exif with commentary, it would be a book, and I've already written one in this thread. It would have to be normhead book 2.0.

Just saying... you can believe what you want, don't let me unduly influence you... I'm just throwing out there how I see it. If it doesn't make any sense to you... no sweat off my back.

Besides, this isn't a strictly technical issue, my wife is always right and what she says pretty much goes, I don't want to get you in trouble.

Last edited by normhead; 01-26-2015 at 02:36 PM.
01-26-2015, 12:18 PM   #112
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Manteca, CA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,653
Original Poster
I am not saying a FF would help her, I stated that she has told we were switching for reason "A". I think she does wonderful with the APS-C sensor, and would post images here if I had permission from the subjects/clients. I was never happy about what she said because I personally love my K-3 and pentax gear and I feel I get nice results with it. If Ricoh releases a full frame will I buy it? Yes I will, but my plan has always been to keep the K-3 because it is such a great camera, and it has benefits which I enjoy and take advantage of frequently.
01-26-2015, 12:25 PM   #113
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,703
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I loved the quote from a few years ago. One of the models Benjikan shot for a major magazine said " I wouldn't get him out of bed for less than a $10k shoot." At the time he was shooting with a K-5. I don't know how to say this more politely, but you people are nuts, bonkers, out of your minds, totally tutti-fruity, if you think the camera you shoot with is going to get you more work. This is a total non-factor. This is the advice, that gets people to invest in new systems worth thousands of dollars hoping to attract new business. For nothing. If your work doesn't stand out, people won't hire you. If your work does stand out, people won't care what you shoot. Your portfolio has to inspire people to think "that's the look I want." You don't have any artistic vision, there's a million other photographers who's work looks like yours? You need to develop your style to the point where people look at you work and identify it with you. Otherwise, you may as well be working down at Walmart in the portrait studio. (and you'll be working for Walmart wages.) Going for the FF, narrow DoF look, sorry there's a million guys with that look. Going for the MF big image thing, there's thousands of guys with that look. I don't know how to say this forcefully enough. Your gear isn't going to get you work.

A lot of what's been posted here is camera marketing hogwash, worthy of the guy behind the counters at the local camera store, who's trying to work up a commission, but not on a camera forum.

There's one reason for shooting full frame. It suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting APS_C- it suits your style.
There is one reason for shooting Medium Format - it suits your style.

The reason most people can't get work in photography is.... they have no style.
Changing camera systems won't help that.

But changing camera systems can make you lighter, less bulky, easier moving in trenches, and more comfortable at work.

You guys really, really need to get off this, bandwagon. Sooner or later it's going to mess you up.

Quit developing gear lists, start developing a shooting style. That's what will differentiate you from the mob.
So you choose the gear... That fit your style.

Please explain me how you are ever going to try, train and discover that your style work best with anything that is not your current gear if you don't try?

I suppose you born as a great photographer and you already know the style and the gear you should get?

01-26-2015, 01:01 PM   #114
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,703
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You can buy an FF system and never take a decent image that requires FF equipment.
This might be true, but it would certain if you have only m4/3 or APSC gear. While I think this is not worth for me to go FF for the moment and I'am no Pro, I really don't get why a pro would limit himself on what he can do just to save 1500$ every 3 years.

This just doesn't make sence. I agree if you are sure you don't need it for what you do, it does make sense. But you would have to try first.

To me it could be plainly justifyed to have several system, camera gear for different occasion. That would be what I'd expect from a great photographer.
01-26-2015, 01:25 PM   #115
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,861
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This might be true, but it would certain if you have only m4/3 or APSC gear. While I think this is not worth for me to go FF for the moment and I'am no Pro, I really don't get why a pro would limit himself on what he can do just to save 1500$ every 3 years.

This just doesn't make sence. I agree if you are sure you don't need it for what you do, it does make sense. But you would have to try first.

To me it could be plainly justifyed to have several system, camera gear for different occasion. That would be what I'd expect from a great photographer.
I don't know how to make this plainer, if you don't do, what an FF enables you to do... don't bother buying an FF. It's not only about what you get, it's about what you give up.

For wildlife/landscape, I get more DoF and magnification in my wildlife images and landscape images where wide DoF is more important than narrow DoF. Why would I give that up? What would I get? Smaller subjects in wildlife and much tighter DoF in many situations?

You're not getting the part where you give up something to get something. You never get it all. So turn the question around.

Why would you give up things you use, to get things you don't use, just to have Full Frame?
01-26-2015, 04:31 PM   #116
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Manteca, CA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,653
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I don't know how to make this plainer, if you don't do, what an FF enables you to do... don't bother buying an FF. It's not only about what you get, it's about what you give up.

For wildlife/landscape, I get more DoF and magnification in my wildlife images and landscape images where wide DoF is more important than narrow DoF. Why would I give that up? What would I get? Smaller subjects in wildlife and much tighter DoF in many situations?

You're not getting the part where you give up something to get something. You never get it all. So turn the question around.

Why would you give up things you use, to get things you don't use, just to have Full Frame?

I can agree with that, and it is precisely why I did not want to unload my gear. For all the sports I shoot the fast burst mode and the crop making my teles longer it is truly optimal.
01-27-2015, 12:30 AM   #117
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,703
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I don't know how to make this plainer, if you don't do, what an FF enables you to do... don't bother buying an FF. It's not only about what you get, it's about what you give up.

For wildlife/landscape, I get more DoF and magnification in my wildlife images and landscape images where wide DoF is more important than narrow DoF. Why would I give that up? What would I get? Smaller subjects in wildlife and much tighter DoF in many situations?

You're not getting the part where you give up something to get something. You never get it all. So turn the question around.

Why would you give up things you use, to get things you don't use, just to have Full Frame?
That wonderfull to speak of landscape or wildlife...

But we speak of pro doing weddings for a living. Something that involve many interior shoots, portraiture, high quality photo. The needs are not the same.
01-27-2015, 04:02 AM   #118
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,243
It doesn't sound like the folks who were requesting Canon/Nikon specifically said a full frame camera, did they? If they didn't, then they are probably just focused on a brand with not so much knowledge to accompany that.

My feeling is that your wife needs to develop a sales talk that emphasizes the things she does well. Her skill, not her gear is what she is really bringing to the table and that is maybe what isn't clear to the clients always. In addition, she will be spending many hours with the couple and then hours after the fact post processing the images. Clients will tend to focus on gear, but she needs to bring the discussion back saying that she has spent thousands of dollars on the gear, but it isn't about that, it is about the time that she has taken developing her style and learning her gear that will give the images they want from their special day.

Full frame does give the ability to use a little more narrow depth of field, which can be handy in some situations and higher iso, which can also be handy. If you are comfortable with flash, and have decently fast lenses with APS-C, I think you can get by without too much trouble.
01-27-2015, 01:28 PM   #119
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 3,311
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...but you people are nuts, bonkers, out of your minds, totally tutti-fruity, if you think the camera you shoot with is going to get you more work. This is a total non-factor....
This isn't the first thread that said a potential client insisted on CaNikon, but it's not common. I recall a thread and a link to an event photography company that wouldn't buy photos from Pentax cameras. Does it happen often enough to change brands? I don't think so but maybe it varies by geography and industry. The OP might live in a region that is overly brand conscious.

Another possibility that might cause some marital discord for the OP: Maybe his wife just wants a D750 and is inflating the number of times Pentax has lost her a job. The D750 is a seductive camera that could get someone to cheat on Pentax
01-27-2015, 02:57 PM   #120
Forum Member




Join Date: Nov 2014
Photos: Albums
Posts: 56
QuoteOriginally posted by Kozlok Quote
Here's a thought, get a Canon label printed up and paste it on your camera. Stupid people won't know the difference anyway.
I second this idea. The ignorant customer won't even know. Paste on a Canon or Nikon logo...

Evidently your wife is getting good shots of the weddings. That should be all that counts, but... it's not. People want brand names with status. If your income is important, you have to follow customer wishes, right or wrong. It's just business.

I'm not knocking either Canon or Nikon. I've shot weddings with both. The big advantage is full frame, for wide angle and supposedly bigger enlargements. This is a logical reason to go to one or the other's full frame line. I could argue that there are wonderful wide angle lenses for Pentax, and that sensor resolutions have increased to the point where full frame has less advantage for enlargements. I think that's true, but do customers? No, sadly.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, cameras, canon, client, clients, customer, dslr, equipment, fa, kit, lens, lenses, money, pentax, people, person, photography, portfolio, results, time, wedding, wife
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help making the right decision K50 or K5iis sriks Pentax K-30 & K-50 28 01-22-2014 08:41 PM
Am I doing this right? LR import to DVD-R ? haycyn Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 27 06-21-2013 03:13 PM
am i making a good deal? Vindemiatrix Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 7 10-23-2012 01:20 PM
Streets Candid street photos: Am I on the right track? jeztastic Photo Critique 7 04-21-2011 01:57 AM
K20D, am I making the right move getting it? Karn Pentax DSLR Discussion 66 08-09-2008 04:44 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:04 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top